IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

General discussion about all the Trackmania series.

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by MrA » 18 Sep 2007 22:27

Look, we diddn't expect to lose access to the entire support structure. In the event of hardware failure we expected to be able to use our server provider to do a restore.

But no, our service provider could not provide service.

Seriously, what we have had to deal with is not normal. But, we will learn from this and have more options in future, be assured.

Some people have talked about donations. Its kind thoughts. At the moment, I simply dont know what situation we will be in when we get online. Please dont send money for the moment. We will know if we will need donations once we are up and running again and if its needed we will surely inform you all and hope for your good will.

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by joshua123 » 19 Sep 2007 08:54

so i guess you should have had a database, so are we going to have one this time?

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by Racemaniac » 19 Sep 2007 09:42

joshua123 wrote:so i guess you should have had a database, so are we going to have one this time?
they had a database, but the company they thrusted it to is no more, and their db is gone with it....
they'd rather need regular backups not made by the same company they host the db at....
as much as the trackmanias may rule, carmageddon 1 & 2 are still the best games ever :D

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by joshua123 » 19 Sep 2007 09:46

Noooooooooo, the server that they have now has no DB with it...

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by Mano_MTh » 19 Sep 2007 10:45

joshua123 wrote:Noooooooooo, the server that they have now has no DB with it...
does it metter?
The TMX-team has proven their skill with what they've done already, before and after The Down. I trust them to choose the best solution for TMX and the community.

MrA and the team, you've done a great job so far, ignore the pressure and take you're time. Personally, i'll rather wait a weak or two longer for THE TMX, then just having some TMX.
By the way. Have you been thinking about any changes in the TMX it self? This could be a good chance to make some.

Once more, fingers crossed and keep the good work :lovetmX

(At least, now we've got more time to practice the online tracks, as they don't get refreshed that often as before The Down :pil)

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by MrD » 19 Sep 2007 11:14

In future, I think we are most certainly planning to take personal backups in addition to those provided by our hosting company.

Although, I don't think some people here appreciate how difficult that actually is. It's all very well suggesting incremental backups, but we still need to get that 20GB copied in the first place. I personally have a 20GB usage limit on my home broadband account, so I can't do it (compression will bring that down, but I still can't afford to lose such a huge chunk of my allowance). It will take many hours to complete.

Then ... to perform the actual incrementals, we'll need some pretty clever software. It'll need to support byte-level diffs, database-driven compares (we can't run a full 20GB compare over the net), shadow copy (the site is live 24/7, and you can't backup a live file) etc. That kind of software is hard to find at a price we can afford.

Then we need someone who has the time and patience to track down such a piece of software, configure it up, provide some of their own bandwidth and disk space to host the backup, do the initial 20GB, and not get bored of the game in 3 or 4 months only to disappear with our backup, leaving us to start all over again.

I think most people here, at least those with their own brain, can understand that relying on our hosts to perform the server backup is pretty normal behaviour, especially given the difficulties I've just described, and that having our hosts go belly-up without warning, and without any last-minute access to the server to make our own backup, is NOT normal.

These "tut tut, should of had a backup" people really piss me off. It's so easy to sit there and make accusations, but I really doubt any of them have got an off site backup themselves. Maybe we'll accidently lose their accounts in the transfer process.

To the remaining 99% of nice people here, we very much appreciate your support and rest-assured we are working to restore the site as soon as we can. As MrA has said, we are still optimistic that we'll get some limited access to our old server (although probably not until later this week), and in the meantime we are considering the possibilities for starting a new server

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by weird » 19 Sep 2007 11:52

MrD wrote:In future, I think we are most certainly planning to take personal backups in addition to those provided by our hosting company.
good to hear!
MrD wrote:Although, I don't think some people here appreciate how difficult that actually is. It's all very well suggesting incremental backups, but we still need to get that 20GB copied in the first place. I personally have a 20GB usage limit on my home broadband account, so I can't do it (compression will bring that down, but I still can't afford to lose such a huge chunk of my allowance). It will take many hours to complete.
of course, it should have been done before it reached 20Gb in the first place. once you get around to producing smaller backups, they can even be divided up among a group of people, say one day each. (but a better option is mentioned below)
MrD wrote:Then ... to perform the actual incrementals, we'll need some pretty clever software. It'll need to support byte-level diffs, database-driven compares (we can't run a full 20GB compare over the net), shadow copy (the site is live 24/7, and you can't backup a live file) etc. That kind of software is hard to find at a price we can afford.
OR you can do it with free tools. but i fear none of you windows people have the skills to work with them.
MrD wrote:Then we need someone who has the time and patience to track down such a piece of software, configure it up, provide some of their own bandwidth and disk space to host the backup, do the initial 20GB, and not get bored of the game in 3 or 4 months only to disappear with our backup, leaving us to start all over again.
correct, this is a tricky part when you have to go outside the already established group to find someone new. suggestion: find someone who already has a server where the backups can be stored. will give you quicker transfers, ability to give you guys access to them, and somewhat more stability in regards to the person disappearing.
MrD wrote:I think most people here, at least those with their own brain, can understand that relying on our hosts to perform the server backup is pretty normal behaviour, especially given the difficulties I've just described, and that having our hosts go belly-up without warning, and without any last-minute access to the server to make our own backup, is NOT normal.
indeed, you were hit by extremly bad luck. sometimes that's what it takes in order to go the extra mile to take care of your data. most ppl dont take much backups of their own data, until they suffer a loss.
MrD wrote:These "tut tut, should of had a backup" people really piss me off. It's so easy to sit there and make accusations, but I really doubt any of them have got an off site backup themselves.
i realize it's not nice to point out flaws in your huge project when you're already on a downer, but it had to be said, and if nothing else, it's made you guys work on fixing this issue (you are lucky you are still trusted by the community, if you had restarted TMX from scratch, you could have ended up with fewer people trusting the site with its data, and maybe even competitors).

offsite backups? of course i got that. i speak out of knowledge, not my ass.
MrD wrote:Maybe we'll accidently lose their accounts in the transfer process.
ouch. i thought you were slightly older...

i fear not for my account, as there are no tracks stored there.

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by MrA » 19 Sep 2007 12:03

Well said MrD!
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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by Mano_MTh » 19 Sep 2007 12:22

weird wrote:
MrD wrote:Then ... to perform the actual incrementals, we'll need some pretty clever software. It'll need to support byte-level diffs, database-driven compares (we can't run a full 20GB compare over the net), shadow copy (the site is live 24/7, and you can't backup a live file) etc. That kind of software is hard to find at a price we can afford.
OR you can do it with free tools. but i fear none of you windows people have the skills to work with them.
MrD wrote:Then we need someone who has the time and patience to track down such a piece of software, configure it up, provide some of their own bandwidth and disk space to host the backup, do the initial 20GB, and not get bored of the game in 3 or 4 months only to disappear with our backup, leaving us to start all over again.
correct, this is a tricky part when you have to go outside the already established group to find someone new. suggestion: find someone who already has a server where the backups can be stored. will give you quicker transfers, ability to give you guys access to them, and somewhat more stability in regards to the person disappearing.
Well,
nice to see there is somebody with experience out there. But what does it help, when nobody has the balls to give at least some technical support.

weird, at least tell them (PM), which SW you've been writing about.

I don't think that any of you "experienced in the DB backup" has the balls to go all the way and assure Q&A support for the TMX-team. If you're experienced then you know, it's pretty tricky to get it working.

Please, be more constructive.

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by gman » 19 Sep 2007 12:31

all ppl playing the blame game think about this...

tmx has been running since tm original correct ??? so thats a few years the founders have been offering this site to EVERYONE for FREE... the only people it isnt FREE to is the Founders/moderators.... and it isnt that cheap to cover a yearly cost to rent a server especially for the size that tmx is....

over the years of running tmx it has been done in the founders/moderators SPARE time... and the site is probably like looking after a baby... giving it CONSTANT care and attention... for FREE and for OUR benefit and i guess the only reward they get out of it is to see the many users enjoying what they have created..... good on them for that matter...

Also we are lucky to have people in the tm community that have the dedication to run such a site like this....

and weird im sure "mrD" said about the accounts being accidently lost was probably said in frustration to the narrow minded ppl who keep blaming them for loosing the data..these people dont see that tmx crew is gutted enough as it is.... there doing there best to resolve this situation and are even giving us daily updates to what is going on... cant ask for more

also weird im no wizz when it comes down to things like this but you sound asif you you alot about service provideing ect.... but in your post theres nothing there to actually HELP tmx....and it does seem your not talking out your ass but you could get OFF your ass and show some evidence of these ideas instead of just talk.... dont take that as a personal dig plz its not... but you sound like the person who can offer help... it would be appriciated by tmx crew if you did....

i wish i could help but im a dumb ass :P gd luck tmx crew... hope the site is up soon im bored as hell lol
Last edited by gman on 19 Sep 2007 12:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by tma » 19 Sep 2007 12:32

Sadly, there's never a shortage of knee-jerk doodz who think they're entitled to 24/7 enterprise-level support for a service to which they've contributed exactly zip, financially or otherwise. And no. Merely posting your own tracks and doling out friend-awards doesn't count as contributing in this particular case. Anyway, who wouldn't want the perfect service, with several highpowered mirrors for performance and reliability? In the end, you have to go for what you can reasonably afford, and have time for.. I also very much doubt that most hosting plans grant you sufficient access to the box you're renting a piece of to just go ahead and install your own backup software on it.. That level of service is gonna cost you a lot more, in any case.

Buuuut, since HDD-space is apparently cheap, bandwidth is cheap, incremental backups are trivial, and time is endless, I suggest certain individuals set up their own service.. Couldn't possibly take more than a couple of evenings.. Looking forward to many a triumph of software-engineering and ingenuity in the days ahead!

(end rant)

Anyway, good luck on getting TMX back up. Trackmania just wouldn't be the same without it.

Hugz&Smoochiezz,
tma

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by smok3y » 19 Sep 2007 12:46

MrD wrote: These "tut tut, should of had a backup" people really piss me off. It's so easy to sit there and make accusations, but I really doubt any of them have got an off site backup themselves. Maybe we'll accidently lose their accounts in the transfer process.
-MrD
That was the funniest thing I heard :1

And very well said MrD - we are all with you, leave the cribbing buggers alone - they just crib and do nothing, actually we dont do anything either but we dont crib and wish the best for TMX and the TMX Crew. And thnx for being such lovely people, without you this game will not be what it is :lovetm

Here's wishing you all a happy recovery and hoping to se TMX up soon :pil
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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by MaB » 19 Sep 2007 13:23

I totally agree with smok3y.

I greatly aprecciate the TMX-crew!! You (TMX crew people) have put your time and your intelligence into this great project! And now you face this serious problem, and still you try to make the best of it! Many thanks from me! You get confronted with people who have all sorts of critism to you. I don't like that. Please don't get too pissed off by it. Good luck with the recovery!

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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by MrD » 19 Sep 2007 13:31

weird wrote:of course, it should have been done before ...
I don't agree. I agree that it would be nice to have one, and we will endeavour to have one in future. But I do not agree that we "should" have one, nor are in anyway obligated to provide such a thing.
weird wrote:OR you can do it with free tools. but i fear none of you windows people have the skills to work with them.
I doubt very much if I lack the skills to operate, or indeed completely rewrite any piece of software you care to introduce me to. What I DO lack, is the time or patience to figure out anything that doesn't have a nice big friendly GUI to guide me through the configuration. Something like SyncBack for example.
weird wrote:indeed, you were hit by extremly bad luck. sometimes that's what it takes in order to go the extra mile to take care of your data. most ppl dont take much backups of their own data, until they suffer a loss.
Case in point.
weird wrote:(you are lucky you are still trusted by the community, if you had restarted TMX from scratch, you could have ended up with fewer people trusting the site with its data, and maybe even competitors).
You see, we're not "lucky" of anything... we don't go home at night thinking "oh, thank god we have a website with X thousand users!", drinking beer and revelling in the fact that we have a whole lot of work to do to keep the thing running smoothly.

We run the site out of a love for the game, and the nice people who come and share the site with us. If the nice people stop hanging around, we'll stop providing the service. There won't be any tears about it.
weird wrote:offsite backups? of course i got that. i speak out of knowledge, not my ass.
Well, if that's the case I take back my comment, in your case.
weird wrote:ouch. i thought you were slightly older...
You're never too old for a sarcastic remark.
Take a look at your own "Windows people" comment for an example ;)

Let's just put it down to perspective, and leave it at that.

Peace.
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Re: IMPORTANT: Trackmania eXchange Downtime

Post by tugaracer » 19 Sep 2007 13:45

Hope Tmx team can solve this the best way they can, allthough im not very forum friendly i noticed something so i decided to reply here, lots of critics and sugestions to the people who are trying to get tmx back online and no one (sorry if i missed any) actually stepping forward. MrD said something about the backups, right?

I have two 24Mbps Dsl2+ lines with no upload/download limits at home, have hd space to store whatever you can think of, however the upload speed for those is only 1Mbps and i dont have the knoledge for those backup thingies (its a miracle i can remap my keys at the gameitself :shock: ).

Now what would be nice was someone that has half the lines i have, hd space to store 20Gb(?), and the actually skill to do that, to come forward and put their work where their words are.

Thanks for the hard work behind Tm-x and good luck in getting this back up.

Nuno "TUGARacer" Borreicho

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