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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:41 pm 
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happy cruiser
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Atze-Peng wrote:
nespokojny wrote:
@Atze-Peng: in some auto competitions (WTCC i think), the winner of qualification (or the winner of previous race, it doesn't matter) has to carry additional weight in his car .. is that ridiculous, too??
Without a doubt.
and yet it is working ... and it has been shown on many examples that such thing works in sports for decades/centuries

Frostbeule wrote:
One thing though, is that the matches can be reaally long with Florent's mode. His idea is that one must win 3 maps, but if all 4 players win 2 maps each, that's 8 maps. Then 9 maps for the winner, then 10 maps for the 2nd place, and finally 11 maps for settling the 3rd place. With Shura's idea, it's over when the maps are over.
true ... but is it really drawback? maybe yes .. maybe not

Frostbeule wrote:
The whole point of Finalist mode or Leader mode or Shura's mode is to take down the top players. To give the less good players a chance at winning as well. It got nothing to do with fairness. It's the same in WTCC. Now the problem is, that what is a top player? A top player can also be you, if you meet less good players than yourself.
yes ofc ... but someday you may happen to be that "less good" player too (in some hypothetic space :) ) ... the rules are the same for everyone ...


tbh I respect all of you (imho frost is best player of all times :D) but I don't understand what are you all protesting against with so much verve .... there was a proposal for a change, it wasn't perfect but very good improvemnts were suggested and you still argue with same arguments ... what are you afraid of? change?

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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:48 pm 
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happy cruiser
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Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF
nespokojny wrote:
Atze-Peng wrote:
nespokojny wrote:
@Atze-Peng: in some auto competitions (WTCC i think), the winner of qualification (or the winner of previous race, it doesn't matter) has to carry additional weight in his car .. is that ridiculous, too??
Without a doubt.
and yet it is working ... and it has been shown on many examples that such thing works in sports for decades/centuries

The other (fair) option works as well (proven for decades/centuries).

nespokojny wrote:
Frostbeule wrote:
One thing though, is that the matches can be reaally long with Florent's mode. His idea is that one must win 3 maps, but if all 4 players win 2 maps each, that's 8 maps. Then 9 maps for the winner, then 10 maps for the 2nd place, and finally 11 maps for settling the 3rd place. With Shura's idea, it's over when the maps are over.
true ... but is it really drawback? maybe yes .. maybe not

Well it would mean the same maps would be played again. Bad for specs. Solution is to release like 11 maps, but I don't think that's a good idea.

nespokojny wrote:
Frostbeule wrote:
The whole point of Finalist mode or Leader mode or Shura's mode is to take down the top players. To give the less good players a chance at winning as well. It got nothing to do with fairness. It's the same in WTCC. Now the problem is, that what is a top player? A top player can also be you, if you meet less good players than yourself.
yes ofc ... but someday you may happen to be that "less good" player too (in some hypothetic space :) ) ... the rules are the same for everyone ...

I agree, people are greedy. The question is, is it right? I'm just trying to see the whole picture.

nespokojny wrote:
tbh I respect all of you (imho frost is best player of all times :D) but I don't understand what are you all protesting against with so much verve .... there was a proposal for a change, it wasn't perfect but very good improvemnts were suggested and you still argue with same arguments ... what are you afraid of? change?

I started this whole debate because the system as it was wasn't good at all. Now Florent seems to agree with that and we are not discussing it anymore. We are discussing what the best solution is.


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:57 pm 
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happy cruiser
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well it's nice conversation with you :)
we both have our own point of view on things and i don't think anyone can with 100% reliability say that his oppinion is absolute right so i assume that we don't have to continue ... at least we moved forward (a little bit i hope :) )

btw nice performace on EMS on sunday .. gj :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:59 pm 
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happy cruiser
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Yes you are right :D, and thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:21 pm 
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cyclist
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nespokojny wrote:
Atze-Peng wrote:
nespokojny wrote:
@Atze-Peng: in some auto competitions (WTCC i think), the winner of qualification (or the winner of previous race, it doesn't matter) has to carry additional weight in his car .. is that ridiculous, too??
Without a doubt.
and yet it is working ... and it has been shown on many examples that such thing works in sports for decades/centuries


And? Just because it is used in a few sports for a long period of time doesnt makes it good.

The best should win and with this system it can be that the best maybe won't, because of an handicap. Especially at this niveau, where all drivers are very very close to each other (we're talking here about 0,0x secs) its just a mess giving someone an handicap. That would make the whole sport to an farce.

Also I'm sure it'll get closer next year. Frostbeule is already very very close to the peak and the rest got more space to improve (not much either, but more than Frostbeule), which will makes it harder for Frostbeule anyway.


Actually I don't like this ESWC with TMN stuff and Frostbeule for some comments about TMU either, but I have to agree with him in any thinkable place at this topic.


If you try to make it closer by any chance, I'm fine with it, but not giving the best an handicap with it he might lose the possibility to win at this niveau.


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:36 pm 
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happy cruiser
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well ... i don't think this whole turmoil here is just because of Frostbeule ... it would be very naive
and also it is not about punishing the best players .... it's about giving hopes to players in 2nd, 3rd etc. positions that they can still win and become champions ... i don't find it unfair ... it's just another way how things can work (once again - you can find similarities in real world sports)

and imho in 95% the best players in current system will also be best in any other new system ...

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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:44 pm 
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cyclist
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I'm fine with a new system giving those points, as long as no one gets an advantage/disadvantage due to this.


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:14 am 
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Developer
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hey, Frost, I am happy that you start to realize that the Leader Mode is similar to Shura. Now, try to see what are the real points in his system. You can have equals, still need to compute the scores on the fly and can not catch up etc. I am happy he suggested since it was a big step when I go toward the leader mode. Finalist for each map was better, but then, I saw that things could be better and more simple.

I repeat the "leader mode"
-1vs1vs1vs1
-3 different maps are set for the competition, each one is 3 laps long.
-The winner of a race on a map get 1 point
-The first to get 3 points win the match, and continue

Discussing this type of mode (Shura and Leader) you need to consider two things:
1. How to win a map
2. How to count those victories.

for point 1, I propose leader mode because:
1. a. The system went from 2 to 4 players because the race did not existed between 2 players. So, let's reward the 1, since it is the smallest number of competitors where we see that there is often enough a winner.
1. b. You don't have the 10-6... and the finalist time. You just have a real race.
1. c. There is a nice strategy in the race, with 1 lap, 2nd lap and 3rd laps having each his own goal according to the state of the race.

for point 2, I also propose the leader mode because:
2. a. If you win a map but do not reach the 3 maps first, you still have your 2 maps to help you finish.
2. b. You can always catch up. If you have 0 map, you can still come back to 3. (even you)

The leader mode with 3 maps to win gives 9-10-11 sets of 3 laps. It makes around 30 minutes.

Now, I also suggested the Leader mode with only one map of 3 laps. The first to get 5 wins get the match.
advantages:
1. All the leader mode advantages
+
2. no loading and understanding of the map by the spectators
3. one map to train only for a competition
4. 5 wins is quite okay for consistency (wrote it for you guys)

Honestly, the latest mode (Leader mode with one map) as a lot of arguments for itself. If you thrust a little our skill (of making games, not driving the cars) you better think twice before rejecting it. Frostbeule wants to competitions to be able to go as far as possible and rewarding the maximum the players... he would need a good environment for this (and really wide spectator audience) And this latest mode "Leader mode with one map" is what I believe, as a pro game developer, may be the best for the future. Now, I don't say it is. Logics have to meet the feelings, like I said in the first words of this topic. But I brought the logics and hope that you can feel it by playing with it.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:32 am 
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pedestrian
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Quote:
3. one map to train only for a competition


That will be very booooooring for the players (i think 3 maps for a competition it's already the minimum).

Quote:
4. 5 wins is quite okay for consistency


If someone crush the concurrence again we'll wait for the 2/3/4th to have 10 wins (5 for the 2nd and 5 for the 3rd) on a 3 laps long map ?

ps : You want to reward the consistance in 1 run. I think most of the players want that reward for the WHOLE match (it works for 1 map too :p) and it's impossible with your onlyfirstgetpoint style.


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:27 pm 
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happy cruiser
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i'm not sure if i understand it well ...
how do you get a point? you have to win 3laps round/race on one map?
then how did Florent count 9-11 sets of 3 laps??? .. the minimum is 3 (if somebody succeed to win 3 consecutive 3laps maps/races 3laps) ... *confused*

and one map is really not enough ... TM is all about new maps, do not make CS from this game ... 3 maps per tournament is quite reasonable

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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Developer
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The leader mode with three laps map
A player needs to win 3 maps to win. To win a map, a racer need to win the race.

Monomap leader mode
1vs1vs1vs1. One map of three laps. Only the first get one point. The first to be at 5 points win the match.

@nespokojny
It makes 9 because the remaining players continue to battle for second and third place. The race does not stop when the first one reach the limit (like in any race btw)

@Shura
Racing competitions sometimes have only one map (ski, cars, bikes, run etc.) I don't say that boring is a bad argument, but if it was the only thing that makes the mode a trouble, I am not sure it is valuable against: no random of maps like people want to avoid, no loading/warm up.. this is boring, no too much training, more easy for spectators to understand the race etc.

For the fact that you dislike other drivers fighting for the remaining places, loot at this post:
http://www.tm-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=143909#p143909
I already suggested that you can make additional run to split the equals.

but another possibility is also to reduce the number of points to 4, to enable the catch up from #4 over #2. This way, the match will last between 12 and 15 rounds of 3 laps. Which I prefer as you can guess.

This mode is designed on the team alternate style I made some years ago.

I need to put aside your accusation that we designed the cup against Frost (even before he won) But if you could apologize on this, I think it could help. I take it for granted that you discuss the mode in order to find a solution. I say this because you made a good step with suggesting a finalist round on each map instead of only the end. However, if it is not the case, I really would like you to avoid making losing my time and make this discussion a dead end.


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:27 pm 
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road tourist
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With regards to map changes, I've always liked this aspect. It's almost like starting with a clean slate. For instance, one might say "ooh Frost totally dominated on this map but I've heard he doesn't like the next one" etc. Indeed, different players always have different favorite maps, which is why I'm personally a great fan of map elimination concepts like the one used in EMS. Also, I agree with nespokojny that just one track kind'a goes against the spirit of trackmania a little bit.

For the leader mode (with three laps), I'm not sure I like the win or lose angle (nothing for placing 2nd, 0.1 behind the winner for instance..). One bug/accident early on would have massive consequences in this mode. There's a saying in racing going something like "one second lost at the start means three seconds at the end". Even so, I don't see races playing out the way Zooz suggested in terms of optimal strategy. It might be optimal in the long run, but not for just three maps which isn't enough to average out. And so, rather than cruise first push later for an exciting photo-finish, I think you will see the opposite: Players pushing in regular rounds mode (90-95%) until someone crashes, and then the survivor who probably has a 2-3sec lead may cruise the last two laps in stability/yawn-mode. Depending on how early aforementioned crashes occur, you could end up with some rather long and extremely boring races this way.

Finally: Cupmode v1.1 ;) The premise of one finalist per map and reduced rate of catching up are definite improvements. I also like the idea presented earlier in the thread of reducing points based on the finalists placement in an individual round. For example, in a given round you have 1st: B, 2nd: A (finalist), 3rd: C and 4th: D. B gains 6 points and catches up with A slightly, but since A beat C and D, they get nothing. I really don't see why they should catch up at all if they can't beat the finalist in a given round? Without the final point in particular, I think finalist is too much of a handicap to be tolerable for the first player. It's the 3vs1 situation that's been repeated here ad nauseum. Once a second player catches up of course, the situation changes again to a 2v1v1.

Still, when all is said and done, I still prefer good old rounds with tweaked points. The default 10-6-4 spread gives way too much to the winner for a competition, though it works rather well on public servers.


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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:24 pm 
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cyclist
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Florent wrote:
The leader mode with three laps map
A player needs to win 3 maps to win. To win a map, a racer need to win the race.


Mhm, really nice solution, but still the best player must wait for the rest. And look, when last two players will fight for the 3rd place, this one, who finally reach the 3rd position have to win 3 maps as the 1st and 2nd player, and he can be second on every earlier map! So imho in this situation, he should be the best :P

I'll present you my solution, similar to the upper one, but a knock-out match:

- 3 maps in mappack
- three stages, each one is a three 3laps maps
- from the 1st stage the worst player come away - he's 4th
- this same in 2nd stage - the worst player is finally the 3rd
- in 3rd stage 2 best players are again playing three 3laps maps (bo3),
- time of playing: 9x3laps=nearly 30 mins
- the best one don't have to wait for the rest
- bigger and bigger level of adrenaline

What do you think about that?
Sorry for my english.


Last edited by Dff|Shadow on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:33 pm 
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happy cruiser
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@Shadow: too much dependent on map order

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 Post subject: Re: Cup Mode logics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:58 pm 
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cyclist
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nespokojny wrote:
@Shadow: too much dependent on map order


oh, right, so maybe only 3 maps in pack?


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