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 Post subject: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:07 am 
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happy cruiser
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I don't.

I think it's not fair. The one with the most points should win. with the 'Finalist' system, you have to prove twice that you are the best, why? shouldn't once be enough? and isn't it like that in every other e-sport? there's alot better solutions that I think ESWC could use. What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:07 am 
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wheelbarrow operator
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:25 pm
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I also don't like the cupmode like it is at the moment and I guess the majority of the community agrees with me there. Let's assume that you are leading by 30points, become a "finalist" and then the track changes ... to your very worst track and you know that you are basically not capable of winning rounds on the track without the help of your opponents (-> they crash), so your points stagnate and your opponents are catching up and you actually have no chance of winning the match anymore, even though you dominated the entire match before.

This is just one example exemplifying the "randomness" of the cupmode like it is now ... why don't u adjust it like that: The point limit is 130points and the one passing that amount of points first has won the match. However, the three remaining drivers continue driving until a second player passes the 130 points mark - this is the time, when the first two players are determined and when the match is over. In order to realize this, you'd actually only need to remove the "finalist"-thingy and keep the remaining rules, apart from raising the points limit, since otherwise the match would be too short.

Think about it :)


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:21 am 
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happy cruiser
happy cruiser

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:17 am
Posts: 173
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF
there's also another problem with cup-mode... when you win, there's big chances you have to wait for quite some time before the other drivers are done, this causes a weird situation for the audience. isn't 2nd and 3rd place worth anything? how will you solve this problem ESWC?


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:29 am 
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wheelbarrow operator
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:58 am
Posts: 16
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I agree with you guys, this mode is random.

Round was really better, as Frost says, you don't have to show two times you are the best, once is enough.
I heared that you want to put this mode for the show, but for the player it's really hard to accept the loose, when you were leading by 30 points or more. Ask Rapt who was at Spirit LAN last week-end, he was the finalist, and finally he finished 4th.

Can we just simply retire "finalist" and fix a points limit ? 5 rounds per maps and 120 or 130 pts is enough, and it shows who is the best on the whole mappack (I don't think somebody will win all the rounds during a big event, so we can have 3 or 4 maps for a match, which is good for me)

Listen to us admins, or you'll have problems @ ESWC xD

Edit : Yeah frost it's too weird, at PingArena and many other events I think, Rapt won and he can't celebrate it at this moment, he had to wait on the scene the other players, btw he was just waiting something like 20 minutes, it's just boring...


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:50 am 
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pedestrian
pedestrian

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:50 pm
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Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMS
so first of all:

What are the benefits of Cup-Mode?
Surely we all understand, that u wanna have the great benefit of getting a closer final, maybe to be even more interesting for spectators. I really could imagine such a cast:

"Oh now player xy tooks the lead while reaching the finalist status, now he just needs to finish one round first to get the ESWC Victory ... OH NO HE CRASHES, HAVE YOU SEEN THAT, AMAZING STUFF. Now Player z has the chance for the never believed comeback. ... YE Z IS FINALIST NOW TOO, NOW ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS EPIC DUELL FOR VICTORY .... And now we switch to Map 05-03, to see the incredible close decission. .... AND THERE IT IS THE AMAZING COMEBACK, Z GETS IT, HE FINALLY WON ESWC AFTER BEING 25 POINTS BEHIND, UNBELIEVABLE!"

ofc its easy to say that keeping your nerves and finishing one final round as first is part of what you need to be a valid ESWC Champion, BUT


What are the problems of the current Cup-Mode?

1. Its nearly impossible to be the strongest player on every map of a pack, so strong to be able to win every round easily if needed. Thinking about an ESWC Grand Final after nolifing the maps everybody there will be able to win single rounds, especially on single maps you slightly prefer more then others.
So especially a Mapswitch after reaching or closely before reaching the finalist status make things even worse. Then u can really have map rotation badluck, u finish many times with the 2nd and 3rd place, rly consistently, but always sbd else fetches the victory, after you were the strongest on 3 out of 5 other maps and you werent even weak on the last one. You can find a nice example by rapt, played this weekend at a french lan ;)

2. Like Frost mentioned, its a kindda weird situation to have a final winner but the game is still running, confusion for every spectator, killing all emotions.



Solutions?

Like suggested removing the finalist thing and then fixing the pointlimit again would be the best solution from our point of view.


Compromise?

i dont see a rly good compromise solution between those two suggestions, but maybe one way between this would be to let the first player who reaches the finalist status decide on what map this game will be finished. but thats bad too, cause it inserts a small break into the game again right before the final decision is made.


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:41 pm 
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TM-Patrol
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I'd like to hear some official opinion on this too. ESWC has worked together with Nadeo during the tests to make Cup what it is now (it used to be even more confusing :P). But I'm not a fan of the Finalist thing, I would prefer it if it was just Rounds, but with runs for 2nd and 3rd up to the points limit. Although I doubt that's the point of Cup, there must be something else.


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:15 am 
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cyclist
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:51 pm
Posts: 32
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Quote:
I also don't like the cupmode like it is at the moment and I guess the majority of the community agrees with me there. Let's assume that you are leading by 30points, become a "finalist" and then the track changes ... to your very worst track and you know that you are basically not capable of winning rounds on the track without the help of your opponents (-> they crash), so your points stagnate and your opponents are catching up and you actually have no chance of winning the match anymore, even though you dominated the entire match before.


:O it's my final at the spirit lan !!!! I become finalist at the end of a track and the next track was my worst track ( because a bad wh ! ) and i didn't finish in first place on any races during this map ( if finish second twice :s) and finnally I loose totally because we were four to become finalist and only the chance make all !

so please change this mod cup !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The changemap after 5 rounds after (or after 6 rounds ??) it's good thing i think , but this finalist its so bad !
So we can do a limitpoint to reach , like 130 or 140 points ?? and when you have 130 points you win ! but the others opponents continue to play and when a second have 130 point he is second .

( sry for my english)


Last edited by rapt on Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:17 am 
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wheelbarrow operator
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:56 pm
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Location: Champigny sur Marne
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My opinion :

The mod cup is really great for sure, the only problem is the "finalist" thing which has to be removed according to me.
Just let us play 5 rounds by map then put the pointlimit higher like 120 or 150 keeping the cup mod.
The winner is the one who reach the pointlimit first, then the others players fight for the second and third place 'til they reach the pointlimit too.
It's better than "rounds" and "cup mod" keeping the best of each mod =)
This is the more logical thing to play a game like Trackmania in tournament.


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:11 pm 
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happy cruiser
happy cruiser

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:17 am
Posts: 173
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF
Thana wrote:
My opinion :

The mod cup is really great for sure, the only problem is the "finalist" thing which has to be removed according to me.
Just let us play 5 rounds by map then put the pointlimit higher like 120 or 150 keeping the cup mod.
The winner is the one who reach the pointlimit first, then the others players fight for the second and third place 'til they reach the pointlimit too.
It's better than "rounds" and "cup mod" keeping the best of each mod =)
This is the more logical thing to play a game like Trackmania in tournament.

and why exactly is it better than rounds?

also you forget the weird situation with 1st place having to wait for the others to finish, before he can celebrate. i think that should be something spontaneous, but now the player isn't allowed (or shouldn't) be allowed to do so. it's just wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:12 pm 
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wheelbarrow operator
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:58 am
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Yep, Thana you'll see @ Game in chelles next sunday how it's weird to win and stay on scene, waiting for other players :D

Round mode was cool, we can play something like 130 or 140 points, longer is better..

Or we can use the cup-mode, set the pointslimit to 150, 5 rounds per map, but the winner is the first to reach 140 points and also we avoid the "finalist" thing. This mode can be used just for the "5 rounds per maps".


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:29 pm 
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happy cruiser
happy cruiser

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:17 am
Posts: 173
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF
i think rounds mode with a different point system is much better than cup mode (which no one likes). consistency should be awarded more, and that's the current problem with the rounds mode today. so just change it to maybe 10 7 5 4 or whatever, and then rise the pl on each map to maybe 50, so we get a bit longer matches. oh and add that eswc-plugin so you can see the current score into the game as a normal feature. then rounds is perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:09 pm 
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cyclist
cyclist

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:51 pm
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the only problem in my opinion is to have finalists, if you play in rounds all mappool will not be played (3/5 maps so it's quite lucky to a good tirage) and this it is damage therefore to keep 5 or 6 round by maps and a number of limit points has attain 140 or 150 points is the best i think (match will be long with this), then I see not in what it is a problem to have to wait that others finish the match.that allows to decide well between places.


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:38 pm 
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sunday driver
sunday driver

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:16 pm
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lo :P

Here's my opinion on this matter:
first of all, I'd like to say "GET RID OF THE FINALIST THING". Really, when I heard how cupmode works, I had something like "wtf, how lame is that for the 1st finalist"... And it really is. It should be all about consistency, not about finishing 1st in a particular round.

What would I suggest?
First, drop the finalist thing ofc. Get back to rounds, or maybe even better: no more points limit, but just play each map for 5rounds for example, so every map gets played as much as the other. That way, you have to be consistent on every map, but if you suck on 1map (the so important last map in cupmode for example), it won't kill you...

I also agree with Frost that it should be 10 7 5 3 or smth like that...
And concerning waiting for the others, if you play 5rounds on each map, every played had enough time to take the place he/she deserves. So after every map is finished, the match should be done and ranking should be made...

Just my personal opinion...

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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:55 pm 
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wheelbarrow operator
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:56 pm
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Korre_elmuro wrote:
lo :P

What would I suggest?
First, drop the finalist thing ofc. Get back to rounds, or maybe even better: no more points limit, but just play each map for 5rounds for example, so every map gets played as much as the other. That way, you have to be consistent on every map, but if you suck on 1map (the so important last map in cupmode for example), it won't kill you...

Just my personal opinion...


+1, let's play 5 rounds each map and the winner is the one who grabbed the more points


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 Post subject: Re: you guys like cup-mode?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:07 pm 
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highway camper
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:10 am
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i am totally agreed with that thing korre.
All maps will be played, each players will played same number of round, thats is so fair..........and to join frost opinion, all players will know their rank immediately.

Finalist thing is absolutely stupid and unfair i think.................


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