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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:19 pm 
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Developer
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Frostbeule wrote:
About the cup mode... well, I tried it once and I didn't quite like it. But that said, I'm open to try something new. We'll see if it will be any success or not.

Oh and warm ups are really not important. We already do warm ups before the match start anyway. And I'm all for making the game as much spectator-friendly as possible.


I agree that warm-up can be removed for better spectator fun. We can have more time of real competition for the same overall length.

as for the cup mode, Frostbeule, this is also done for being spectator-friendly AND competitors friendly (but it would be difficult to argue strongly on that part for me ^_^)
1. The match is never finished before the end
+come back are possible
+there is no possibility to run slowly to assure the victory
+The 4th player can fight the 3rd one until the end and the 3rd the 2nd
-When the champion wins, there is the race to finish (like formula one)
+more visibility for 3rd and 4th player
2. Easier to understand in a way, tougher in another way
+there is no computing to do in spectators head: finalist can win when they win the race
-to understand that you are finalist and then you win is more complicated
3. Big event! More concentrated...
+when the finalist wins, this is spectacle! people can jump on their seat :)
-since come back are possible, when somebody makes a mistake, you less think he is doomed, so you thrill less as specator
+concentration is really important at the end: sport quality more than training quality. People prefers sport champions.

This is just some points to help explain our choice of this mode, but I think the best way to really make our mind is to truly test it in real action and events. So, I welcome a lot this choice. Games-Services suggested this mode for one part, and I am really happy we made it. The rules are quite important for the environment of eSport.

And congrats Frostbeule for your title, I was watching :pil (even if I think I would have preferred it to be in cup mode for suspense ^_^)


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:55 pm 
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happy cruiser
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Well, about the Cup mode, I would be okay for 120 points (same as 40 points*3 maps), 5 maps is good for map pack.

I disagree about the bonus removal. Technically, choosing a map seems to be a bit useless because in final, if WB players choose 3 maps, LB players know what to expect. Before it wasn't possible because it was random.
And even if we didn't really see it in competitions, a 10-point lead can be easily lost by finishing last or abandoning.

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:02 pm 
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tricycle manager
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Florent wrote:
Frostbeule wrote:
About the cup mode... well, I tried it once and I didn't quite like it. But that said, I'm open to try something new. We'll see if it will be any success or not.

Oh and warm ups are really not important. We already do warm ups before the match start anyway. And I'm all for making the game as much spectator-friendly as possible.


I agree that warm-up can be removed for better spectator fun. We can have more time of real competition for the same overall length.

I would prefer keeping 1 wu before each 5 runs series. I need it. If it's useless for someones, maybe this wu could be a little pause for them ?

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:56 pm 
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highway camper
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Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:49 pm
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Nice initative to change rules :)

I think most of suggestions are very good.
Just for the advantage from LB it's not so great advantage to chose a the 2 first maps, certainly with a mappack of 5.

If I understand correctly a player that reached 100 points have to make one more run in 1st place to qualify. It can be nice to give them the chance to don't need to drive this last run.


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:01 pm 
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road tourist
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than it would be too easy


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:03 am 
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cyclist
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:51 pm
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one wu per map i think its important to do a little break between 2 maps.

After with this mod we can have a winner with less points than the second , the first place during run its too much important .


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:32 pm 
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highway camper
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Hi,

I think the 5 rounds/map and 100pts overall are ok as the matchs should last about as long as before.

Though I don't really agree on the warmups removal, as Rapt said it would be nice to have at least 1 for the sake of giving the players a quick break. Someone should explain (or do it again because i obviously haven't got it :P ) how a wu between each map kills the show that much.

Also if you were to keep the wb players' advantage to the map choosing for the final, I suggest that you change the order to something like that:
- "wb 2nd" chooses the 1st (or 2nd) map
- "wb 1st" chooses the 2nd and 3rd maps (or 1st and 3rd, depending on the other line)
The point is that a match will generally be over during the 3rd map. As one has to win a round after getting 100pts to finish the match, it would give an (unfair?) advantage to the "wb 2nd" over the "wb 1st" as he is supposed to be stronger on the map he chooses...

Don't mind asking for further explanations if i have not been clear enough ... :P


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:46 pm 
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Developer
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I always say "go go go" during warm up before I realized this is just fake racing. :mrgreen:

for map selection advantage, I think a champion would choose to play it's least favorite at first. Assuring that the finalist time would not be on it


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:14 pm 
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happy cruiser
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Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:17 am
Posts: 173
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF
Let's get this clear: there is no "map selection" advantage. The difference of how you play on the 5 maps are minimal because you train them so much. In other games you have to win a SECOND match if you get from the Loser Bracket. Common, 10p advantage is such a better solution.


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:46 am 
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Developer
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I personally did not say opposite about this. I took that you add the fact that there is no least favorite... and I can believe you when I see your drives. For me, 10 pts can be compensated a little by the finalist concept: it is "one" lost. The number 2 players would gain 10 pts by arriving first and the finalist would have 0. So, it is one lost of finalist in advance... which is a illustration of loser bracket come back. However, I don't know if winner bracket should have an advantage. I don't really see the point of a final if some players starts with advantages... even more if they are already the favorite. It makes the final double biased. I understand that the winner bracket players would like to have a easier win, but looser bracket is already more stressed before the final, because you can not loose, while in winner, you know that you can loose one time.. except for the real final off course.


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:27 am 
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pedestrian
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:14 pm
Posts: 7
Double Elimination means that you need to be eliminated twice to be out of the tournament.
If you dont give the winners of the winner bracket some kind of advantage, that would make it a single elimination bracket for them in the end.

I can see that you want to make the final as exciting as possible for the spectators, but it just wouldnt be fair for the players.


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:59 pm 
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tricycle manager
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Florent wrote:
I always say "go go go" during warm up before I realized this is just fake racing. :mrgreen:
I understand that you want to make the matches as exciting as possible for the spectators and it's important for players : no spectators => one day, later... no players => one day, later... no game. But no players => no spectators =>no game too ! For the moment in this forum, I see most of the players saying 1 wu is good instead of none.
__
Let's be careful that one day, later, players don't become "slaves"... Let's wonder : why am I playing ? Who am I playing for ? What am I playing for ?

Edit : Maybe 10 pts for finalits from winner bracket is too much in a 100 pts mode cup match ? 7 pts, 8 pts maybe ?

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:33 pm 
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TM-Patrol
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Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:58 am
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Gaming is a spectator sport. If no one wanted to watch it, there'd be no sponsors, and no big tournaments either. So yes, you're slaves of the viewers. Sorry :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:18 pm 
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Developer
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:07 pm
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it may be cool for a champion to have spectators.

I was just going in the direction of frostbeule, surely because he has good heading ^_^

If WU still there, then I suggest, for spectator, to look at champions profile or prematch interview during warm-up, so it would tell a better story than WU.


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:54 am 
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ESWC Staff
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:09 pm
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I think one WU is fine, specially for a match on stage. But for this one the shoutcaster and the production must use the WU to explain the map, the hot spot of the map, maybe to give some other information about the players or statistics. This kind of stuff is always good to show on stage.


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