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 Post subject: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:15 pm 
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ESWC Staff
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Location: France --> Valdurenque(81)
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Hi,
This season we would like to stop rounds mode and play cup mode.

The question is, which parameters. We are open to idears.
Matches will still be 1 vs 1 vs 1 vs 1.

We have to determine the following parameters : here is how I see it
- Points to reach : 100
- Number of rounds / map : 5
- Number of winners : 3/4
- Map pack size : 5

We also have to decide what advantage we give to players arriving in Grand Final from winners bracket.
My proposition is to let the 1 from winner choose 2 first maps and 2nd choose third map. If more maps are needed to finish they will be random order.

Give your point of view and explination. We have short time to decide , so faster is better.
3...
2..
1.
GO !! :)


EDIT 07-10-2008 : October map pack for french qualifications is out - ftp://ftp.eswc.com/regulations/2009/files/trackmania/ESWC2009_october_TMNF_pack.rar
Regulations should be out very shortly

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Last edited by donzeze on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:49 pm 
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Pit Crew
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A small suggestion is to remove automaticaly mix map, because it's not beautiful to see some of them in Grand Final :scene:

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:02 pm 
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tricycle manager
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Hi
donzeze wrote:
- Points to reach : 100
Not less than 100 points for me. Maybe 100, 110, 120 ? In last year mode, the first would often finish with about 120 pts but the other one qualified didn't have to reach same number of points... So, 100 or 110 pts would be good according to me.
Quote:
- Number of rounds / map : 5
OK. 2 wu before each new map, please ?
Quote:
- Number of winners : 3/4
I don't understand, what do you mean ?
Quote:
- Map pack size : 5
OK, good, training 8 maps was hard !
Quote:
We also have to decide what advantage we give to players arriving in Grand Final from winners bracket.
My proposition is to let the 1 from winner choose 2 first maps and 2nd choose third map. If more maps are needed to finish they will be random order.
I like this idea, no other idea for me.

:?: When will first mappack be downlable, please ?

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:44 pm 
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pedestrian
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:45 pm
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remember me , points we win in cup mode plz . 25...? coz if there is a too big difference of points at the end of round, it would be bad.. dunno if u undersant what i'm trying to say.
Numbers of winners : 3/4 means only 1 is eliminated ?
Competition system is still a tree @ double bracket ?
The other parameters seem nice .

To choose maps, please don't do vote on forum . Take some players or somebodys who know tmn to choose 5 maps..


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:44 pm 
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Pit Crew
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Overdose wrote:
remember me , points we win in cup mode plz . 25...? coz if there is a too big difference of points at the end of round, it would be bad.. dunno if u undersant what i'm trying to say.

for 1vs1vs1vs1 i guess that it stay standard points (ie 10,6,4,3)

Overdose wrote:
Numbers of winners : 3/4 means only 1 is eliminated ?

I think that Donzeze's idea was to make a real Cup mode ranking of the 4 players, making 3 of them reach the points limit and finish. Btw with 2 eliminated i think that 2 winners is enough. It's just a little difficult to rank the 3rd and 4th players if they are both finalists when the 2nd finish...


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:39 am 
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ESWC Staff
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Location: France --> Valdurenque(81)
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Slig wrote:
I think that Donzeze's idea was to make a real Cup mode ranking of the 4 players, making 3 of them reach the points limit and finish. Btw with 2 eliminated i think that 2 winners is enough. It's just a little difficult to rank the 3rd and 4th players if they are both finalists when the 2nd finish...


That's what I meant.. That's also why I think that we should have 3 winner so everyone has a chance to fight for a better ranking.

It should stay a double bracket.

For the map pack I still don't know how it's going to be done..We have to wait a bit for that.

Kaloupey wrote:
OK. 2 wu before each new map, please ?


We tried that in LAN last season , and honestly it's too much... I think it will go down to 1 and for matches played on stage, players will have some warm up before match but none during match. That is to make live better to watch.

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:58 pm 
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pedestrian
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If you look at the scores from the eswc grandfinal, the winners average score was about 125.
So the points to reach should be 120 to keep the current lenght of the races and not make it more random by shortening it. The matches in Trackmania are already shorter than any other game so there is no need to shorten it even more.
5 rounds per map is ok as that guarantees at least 3 maps.
3 winners are needed for the correct positioning in the double elimination tree, so thats fine.
Map size 5 is perfect aswell, as 8 was really a pain to train last season.
The advantage for the winner bracket winners should stay at 10 points. To choose a map is no real advantage when there are only 5 to choose from. In other games the players coming from the winners bracket can loose a whole match in the grandfinal and still get a second chance.
So i think 10 points is the least advantage they should get.

To sum it up:
- Points to reach : 120
- Number of rounds / map : 5
- Number of winners : 3/4
- Map pack size : 5


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:24 pm 
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tricycle manager
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medic wrote:
- Points to reach : 120
I prefer 120 pts and match longer too.I find good Medic's argumentation.
Quote:
- Number of winners : 3/4
OK, now I understand and fully agree.

For 1 wu instead of 2, I understand it gives more rythm to a match. Good for spectators and maybe for players too. But I don't really like it for the moment. If 2 wu were really necessary for last season way of playing, it should be the same now. Why ? Last season, a map would be finished in minimum 4 or 6 runs and often more. In this new mode, a map is finished in 5 runs. So, if 2 wu were necessary last year, I think that 2 wu would be necessary too in this mode with 5 runs per map.
But were 2 wu a good thing last year ? Maybe 1 wu would have be enough ? What think players and good players about it ?

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:20 pm 
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ESWC Staff
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Location: France --> Valdurenque(81)
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Hi all,

Thanks for you answers and idears....

the thing is that 120 will not necesseraly make match longer because even with 80pts match is best reaches 80 and does no make first run a while it just keeps playing... and even more when the first one has finished the others avec to ficnish too so I think 100 is good to try , 120 might be too long . In a LAN competition there are many matches to play with double bracket in short amount of time... I think that value should be set to 100 for a 2 month just see what it does. Games Services will change it if necessary anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Developer
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even if I don't like the 10 points advantage too much, I can add that with "finalist" thing, there is less problem with it, because even if you have 10 points, the other player behind just need to finish before you to avoid this. I mean, he can catch up really fast when you are finalist because you make 0 points until you win. So, it is better in the spirit with the cup mode, because it tells that you have virtually one "free" chance at the end, as a finalist... which is more fair than a head start to determine who is really the best.

something really hard would be that the "challengers" should win "two final" rounds instead of one to win. So, they would appear as "semi-finalist" and then "finalist" But I would not insist on making things more complicated than they are.

Bottom line is that I would rather support the idea of map picking. This is strategic and can give a psychological advantage to choose the first map. You would feel more comfortable. And for the show, it is really the best that will come out of the match!


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:34 pm 
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highway camper
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I agree most of comments, especially the 5maps pack instead of more. I really didnt like the "luck part" in random maps, and with 8maps its quite big.(we cant train as well all maps)

About the warmups, I dont think they are such usefull anymore as far as you are really well trained...The problem used to be (for me) that the first run on a map was very laggy with my computer...that's why i liked wu...But as far as no one has the problem anymore, looks ok for me.

regarding the map pack, we have quite often really bad maps coming into it... As we could see the vote system was not really good because of the ammount of maps to try, maybe a trial pack with 7/8maps can be released, and then a vote used to keep the five best maps. Sound great in my opinion, but that just an idea ;)


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:56 pm 
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ESWC Staff
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I think the packs were better since a few months as the selection isn't any more based on public vote but only on ESWC staff selection. Maybe we will do a pre-selection and then release it to have the players' opinion depending of the time to do the selection each two months.


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:17 pm 
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tricycle manager
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Overdose wrote:
remember me , points we win in cup mode plz . 25...? coz if there is a too big difference of points at the end of round, it would be bad.. dunno if u undersant what i'm trying to say.
Numbers of winners : 3/4 means only 1 is eliminated ?
Competition system is still a tree @ double bracket ?

Nameless and I wonder same questions as Overdose.
Points per run = 10,6,4,3 or 25,... ?
Why 3 winners per match ? For ranking and "seed" (to know were goes the 3rd and the 4th in losers bracket ? ) ? Still 2 qualified and 2 eliminated (same double bracket sytem than last year) or new system ?

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Last edited by Kaloupey on Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:19 pm 
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happy cruiser
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Having the privilege to choose maps if you come from the winner brackets isn't much of an advantage. I still prefer the 10p extra thingy. But that's just me.

As far as choosing maps please let someone with some expertise do the map-picking. Voting isn't the ideal idea I think. 5 maps instead of 8 is awesome though. It's amazing how much maps I've trained in my days. Getting. Kind. Of. Bored.

About the cup mode... well, I tried it once and I didn't quite like it. But that said, I'm open to try something new. We'll see if it will be any success or not.

Oh and warm ups are really not important. We already do warm ups before the match start anyway. And I'm all for making the game as much spectator-friendly as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: New season 2008-2009
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:28 pm 
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cyclist
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10 points of bonus are an advantage, on the contrary fact to choose the map is in no cases an advantage given that there is 5 maps in the pack and the players are so much train over that this brings no advantage to choose the map.

Now to the cup mod will be test in a competition online so all players can test it .


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