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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:29 am 
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road tourist
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Flint wrote:
The gameplay is almost the same, but not the same. Even times are different and as someone already said, some tracks are hard to play in the new version.

no its not true ;)
look
Florent wrote:
-gameplay is using exactly the same code, a proof is somehow that same records can be made on both version
-feeling can change because of many things (input synchro, visual synchro, visual performance, CPU/GPU power balance, different visuals) etc.

we even have players telling there are huge difference between two tests versions.


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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:39 pm 
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tricycle manager
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I agree with you Flint.

Daddy_mfX, I find your argument is a quite good one. But what is the most important ? Knowing that technicly gameplay is the same or feeling the gameplay is the same ? Whenever gameplay would be technicly the same, there's a little but important difference concerning slides. That's why I agree with...
Flint wrote:
The gameplay is almost the same, but not the same.

I understand that Nadeo and maybe ESWC may prefer finishing the season with TMNF but sportively, I thing it's a nonsense. Moreover ESWC would have to change their rules to finish prelimaries season on TMNF : ftp://ftp.eswc.com/regulations/2008/preliminaries/documents/ESWC2008_TRACKMANIA_REGULATION.pdf. Because :
"3.01 The competition uses the “Trackmania Nations ESWC” video game and his latest version.". It's not the game "Trackmania Nations Forever ESWC". But ESWC can change the rules if they want : "1.02 This committee reserves the right to modify the rules and regulations from time to time without notice.". If they do it, it must appear in these whole world rules, isn't it ?

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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:42 pm 
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smooth traffic navigator
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From playing TMUF stadium (same as TMNF) quite abit lately, i can say that ESWC should stick with TMN ESWC Edition.
There are just too many random landing bugs on all blocks, and this makes the outcomes based on luck, rather than skill.

Until Nadeo can find a way to remove most of these random bugs, we should stick with what works.

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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:13 pm 
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road tourist
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i thought there cant be "new" random bugs on the old tmn blocks...so you can have exactly the same bugs in the old tmn...or am i wrong? :ftw:
i agree, the dirt is bugy and random, but eswc maps have to be build in tmn, not in forever.
.
2 Kaloupey: i think there is enough time to adapt, you have more than 2 months for Masters of Paris and almost 4 to the grand final in San Jose


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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:50 pm 
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ESWC Staff
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Flint wrote:
Sorry Sylvain but I gotta disagree with you. The gameplay is almost the same, but not the same. Even times are different and as someone already said, some tracks are hard to play in the new version.


I'm sorry to insist but I have spoken a lot with nadeo developpers and I can assure you the gameplay is exactly the same...

Forever as a lot of interesting options to be used in competition , would be a shame not tu use them...( By the way I'm a player too )

See you :)

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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:25 pm 
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tricycle manager
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ESWC-Sylvain wrote:
Hello everybody,

We will communicate on this question until start of May :)
ESWC communication is waited with attention :wink: !

donzeze wrote:
I'm sorry to insist but I have spoken a lot with nadeo developpers and I can assure you the gameplay is exactly the same...
I'm sorry to insist too, Donzeze, but...
Florent wrote:
-feeling can change because of many things (input synchro, visual synchro, visual performance, CPU/GPU power balance, different visuals) etc.
Am I the only one to feel the difference ?

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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:12 pm 
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cyclist
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I've been talking to alot of players and we all feel a difference between the two versions. Times ARE different and the landing bug is more present in the new version.

Not that I do not trust what Florent said, but the theory doesn't always apply to the facts. They used the same code? Then why is the landing bug so annoying now, much more than it used to be?

I can't just throw the theory on the players and tell them it will all be ok, that the game is the same, and wait untill they realize I was wrong.

About the features. I don't really care if TMNF has more features, but I do care if someone practices 6 months for ESWC using a game and someone tells him he'll have to move to another one just because there is a new version out. It wouldn't be a problem if the game was exactly the same, wich is not the case. I haven't seen a situation like that in 4 years working for WCG and 3 years working for ESWC.

Drop the theory, install both games, use the ESWC tracks and see for yourself.

I don't wanna be responsible for ruining someone's fun and I wasn't expecting for you guys even consider changing the games in the middle of the competition. But if we're doing that, for whatever reason you guys may have, please let us know as soon as possible. I'll have to work on better machines for the finals, tell the players that they'll have to start practicing using TMNF, and I'd like to have something official about it to show them, so they know that I'm not the one to blame.


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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:25 pm 
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tricycle manager
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I've just play on ESWC maps with TMNF and finally, I don't really feel the difference that I thought having found driving on others maps :-O !

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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:47 am 
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ESWC Staff
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To flint : I totally agree with you on the fact that there is a different "fealing" between both games... I played twice in eswc.fr finals but unfortunatly I must not be god enought to see a real difference...

As for landings bug i didn't play enough to see a difference if there is one.

But anyway , games services are the one that decide.. and I have no news about their verdict yet...

There one thing I can ( which I agree players dont care at all about ) is that TMN is not really fun to administer for many reasons and TMNF has corrected all that...

...Just wait and see and hope answer will be quick...

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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:54 am 
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TM-Patrol
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I've played both extensively, especially in the beta, and haven't noticed any difference between TMF and TMU and very little difference between TMN and TMF outside of the new blocks. Especially not with landing bugs. Only the dirt blocks are of course quite buggy but they were buggy in TMU as well and they were not there at all in TMN. Also, I doubt tracks with landings on dirt will be used in ESWC.

This happens after every patch, people saying the physics have changed massively, even though they never change anything. It's a strange phenomenon and I don't get it, haven't noticed it much myself other than "feeling" changes due to better graphics.


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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:53 am 
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cyclist
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Never said they have massively changed, but changed enough to change the game and the times. And that's enough to make it a different game in my point of view.

I played TMN fnac trophee finals in paris too .. my resume won't make me more reliable tho. I tested both games and I felt the difference, even using the same graphics on the same computer.

I'll just wait for the decision now. Don't really care what it will be.. I won't be playing.. just come up with something soon please.


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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:35 pm 
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Developer
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okay, I will avoid to come back on how it works in the program, because I think the question should be answered even without this.

1. I think the most important is to consider the players opinion, whatever happen. This is them playing and going for competition.
2. Good sports people I met are successful in many conditions and rarely complain about changes. They adapt to things like weather, playground state, hardware etc.
3. There are many settings to check in order to find your most comfortable setting. For example, you can try to change the CPU/GPU synchro scheme in compatibility page of advanced graphics. The final most important indicator of "heavy" feeling is a value that we now display in the analyzer: the [timestamp] It gives you the difference between the time your pressed the key according to the input driver and the time it was taken into account. You will see that the average can even change when you launch the same game again.

Now, my feeling ^_^ is that feeling is mostly link to adaption. When you play a lot with snow car, and you come back to stadium, you feel the car heavier. Nothing has changed, but your brain expect something different, so it feels different than before. When you install a new version, you can also have this change of mind where your brain concentrate on different things more than others. Because when you play a map with 1000 coppers or 3000 coppers, your framerate change, and so the responsiveness of the car (not the gameplay) And, strangely, people do not complain. I think it is because they do not expect it to change.


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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:48 pm 
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smooth traffic navigator
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I must agree that you can get the same times in TMN and TMNF, even though it may feel different.
I was playing a medium length TMU (stadium) race map for skill points last week, and tried the map in TMU and TMUF and got the exact same times at each CP... maybe .01 difference.
So I don't think that you will get a totally different experience on the 2 versions.
However yes, some maps do feel completely different in TMNF than it does in TMN, especially the ESWC maps, however I guess thats because of the change in graphics mainly, and requires getting used to.

The landing bugs is the biggest problem for me.. Sadly, you can get them on any block, an while I very rarely got them on TMN, I get them all over in the TMU stadium and TMNF solo campaigns.
That is something to take into account.. however I guess it's best to ask those training for GC6 or FGL on TMNF if they experience bugs on those maps.
Maybe Nadeo just constructed very bad maps (no offense) that highlighted the landing bugs, and it is possible to build a map completely without such bugs..

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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:06 pm 
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pedestrian
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I have to agree with Zell... we can make racing times quite same in both games (TMN vs. TMNF), but the chance of landing bug is much bigger in TMNF. My first racing in TMNF was nice, I liked it ... But when I tryied 04 ESWC maps, I was really disapointed... In some maps I got such a weird landing bugs so often. For 2 weeks in TMN on these maps I never got landing bugs like in TMNF. And its not just a feeling!! In other side, I think, there is less of rammstein bugs. Some maps are OK, some maps have really bad parts (where you can get landing bug often). So if there will be maps chosen for TMNF primary, it could be good. But last packs were chosen for TMN, so....

BTW I played on many computers, and some of them have different game feeling in the same game. When I played on LAN on few computers with ATI/AMD, car seems to be moving slower, sliding harder (faster slowing), and rammstein bugs I got more often, then on computers with NVidia cards. Maybe its not only in graphics card, but any combination of hardware should make game feeling different aswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Official game at ESWC 2008
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:27 pm 
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TM-Patrol
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lol, I don't think graphics card would affect how many bugs you get, that's a physics change, not a feeling change. I haven't noticed any increase in bugs on TMN maps in TMNF, really.

Still, aren't there any landing bug dodging techniques you can use like in the other environments? Maybe I do that automatically and almost never get landing bugs outside of dirt because of that or something, I dunno. Anyway, I havent had any big problems with bugs, though I havent played stadium league tracks much in TMF other than my own and some UL3 ones.


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