BUGS IN FOREVER

General Discussion about Trackmania Nations ESWC.

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Frustratedgamer
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BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Frustratedgamer » 30 Jun 2008 05:26

Hello!
I am a trackmaniac. I have played the old Nations for hundreds and hundreds of hours. I loved that game, even though that game wasn’t perfect with its small bugs and glitches. I learned how to avoid the bugs and deal with them the best I could. But of course not all bugs could be avoided.

So when Nadeo announced that they would release a new game called Nations Forever, which was basically a new and updated version of the old game, I was overjoyed with happiness . Finally, I thought, they are going to do something about those ugly bugs!

I COULDN’T HAVE BEEN MORE WORNG!!!

Instead of fixing the bugs, there are actually MORE bugs in forever. And I’m not talking about the “dirt” which we all know is buggy as hell. I am talking about how you lose speed suddenly for no reason after a landing or even by just driving. Depending on the landing, the bug could occur as much as 1 in 3 runs regularly. And I know what I am talking about: In the old Trackmania nations I trained several technical league-maps every week. And I continued with that in Forever, every week since its release. Mostly for ESL, but also ESWC tracks. The difference is obvious. There are A LOT more bugs in forever. IT IS A LOT HARDER TO BE CONSISTANT IN FOREVER.

This “Forever” update is great for the AVERAGE NOOB. But it is a huge blow to the competitive trackmania-gaming scene. Already I know of many high profiled players that are losing motivation and giving up the game because of this.

As the game is now it is barely fit for professional gaming. If nothing is done, this game will surely die a slow death, at least in the competitive scene!

What I want to know is what Nadeo intend to do about this issue. Will there ever be a new and improved trackmania, or are we stuck with this for "forever”?

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Zooz » 30 Jun 2008 05:43

no physics changes :mrgreen:
It's always been one of the main strong points of TM, consistent handling. If they'd change it to remove the bugs, it would be different, and lots of people would have complained (like me).


The bugs are not that bad, anyway...

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by PuPPeT » 30 Jun 2008 08:33

remove landbugs please......

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Frustratedgamer » 30 Jun 2008 14:58

Zooz wrote:no physics changes :mrgreen:
It's always been one of the main strong points of TM, consistent handling. If they'd change it to remove the bugs, it would be different, and lots of people would have complained (like me)
Then tell me why are there more bugs in forever than the old nations?
And I think most players would happily adapt to a little bit diffrent physics if the bugs were to be removed.
Zooz wrote:The bugs are not that bad, anyway...
No, they are bad. If u think diffrently u do not know what u are talking about.

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Racemaniac » 30 Jun 2008 17:39

Frustratedgamer wrote:
Zooz wrote:no physics changes :mrgreen:
It's always been one of the main strong points of TM, consistent handling. If they'd change it to remove the bugs, it would be different, and lots of people would have complained (like me)
Then tell me why are there more bugs in forever than the old nations?
And I think most players would happily adapt to a little bit diffrent physics if the bugs were to be removed.
Zooz wrote:The bugs are not that bad, anyway...
No, they are bad. If u think diffrently u do not know what u are talking about.
yeah, especially since he's one of the fastest players in the worldand has been playing forever since the alphatests where we were in dialog with the developpers on this to see if we could find any real evidence of possible physics changes.
yes, the landig bus sucks, but the code of forever should be the same of that of the old nations. after extensive testing some of the best players in the world weren't able to find any real differences, so whatever problems you've got, they're probably more in your head than in the game...
as much as the trackmanias may rule, carmageddon 1 & 2 are still the best games ever :D

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Frustratedgamer » 30 Jun 2008 18:25

Racemaniac wrote: yeah, especially since he's one of the fastest players in the world
Wrong. Maybe in United, but not in Nations.
Racemaniac wrote: yes, the landing bus sucks, but the code of forever should be the same of that of the old nations.
Yes Nadeo is saying so. Either they are lying or the bugs appear for another reason.
Racemaniac wrote: after extensive testing some of the best players in the world weren't able to find any real differences,
The testing was not done thoroughly enough. And not over a long enough period of time.
Racemaniac wrote: So whatever problems you've got, they're probably more in your head than in the game...
No. This opinion is spread widely among competitive trackmania drivers.

And now "New World Order", or better known as "nWo" quits trackmania. They are know as the best trackmania team ever.
The reason for their retirement is many, but one of the impoartent factors was the release of Forever. This is taken from their website:

" Although we lost the STC4 final, we cemented our position with the victory in Tech Tournament, however soon after that is when a lot of motivation was lost.
TMNF came out with a huge landing bug problem that has ruined the fun for some of us, and the ESL decided to hold a tournament right after major teams tournaments, and during a time where most ESWC qualifiers were to be held, resulting in us not participating.
As you now see, the sponsorship issue was too big of a problem due to unfortunate events, and with the release of TMNF much interest has been lost in the competition."


The question is not whether there are more bugs in forever or not. Everyone who drives trackmania competitive on a regular basis agree that there are more bugs in forever.

The question is however, what will be done about this? Will anything be done at all? I was hoping Nadeo would give me an answer.

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by JWH » 11 Jul 2008 01:04

Time for me to add into this topic.

I'm playing for Begrip gaming, which is currently at the top in ESL and individually I am going to the ESWC. So don't call me anything regarding what i'm saying because it's all how i experience it.

As I am competitive i train tracks for cups over hunderds of times, and you don't want to know how frustrating this has gotten, not to mention matches. Seriously, outcomes of matches can be decided by the randomness in this game rather than just bad driving.

Let me for example mention the most recently played ESWC France Finals and ESWC Masters Finals.

ESWC France Final: GH000ST and Carl are nearly tied going into the very last round. GH000ST is cruising with a nice lead, but what happens? A tilted hairpin, GH000ST goes through it, barely hits the rammstein but yes. BUG! Slowdown bug by Rammstein, how often have I had those in training. This made him lose the lead, and eventually made him end 2nd in the ESWC France finals behind Carl, which is quite a blow as that's the difference between a paid trip to USA and just competing and getting there on your own.

ESWC Masters Final: An example of the 'landing bug' as mentioned by the Topic Starter. Frostbeule, 2nd last round of the match. Having the lead, then there's a 'drop' in the track towards a platform part. We all know Platform surfaces are FLAT! What happens now? Slowdown bug by landing FLAT on a FLAT surface. Heck, i've even had this occuring on GRASS. That is ridicilious. If Frost would have won that round the final outcome could have been different.

As commented above, the game has been tested through and through by top players. I agree with some top players, but disagree with through and through. Now tournaments switched to it, players starting to train maps time after time and again to perfect it. This is where most bugs happen now. When they were testing, they were driving without a serious proper goal, so a bug every now and then, it's just fine. But now when it comes to it, it's fatal.

If you don't believe me on how often these appear? Namely Rammstein bugs most of all, you should see my replay folder. I try to save as many I can. Even caught 2 nice ones from a match very recent.

Now players losing motivation because of this, because why train to the max if you can get bugged out at any moment? Because the real top seperates itself from players that can do the corners are tight as possible time after time, in rounds. Now going tight over rammsteins risks you to bug like 60% of the time. I'm questioning myself too if i should go on after ESWC as it's getting on my nerves. I can imagine myself breaking things at the ESWC Grand Finals.

When the Dutch Qualifications were for the ESWC. I started training in Forever for a week to learn the tracks. But luckily, the tournament would be played on the old classic Trackmania Nations, thank god. First thing I immediatly noticed driving the same tracks in Nations rather than Forever. Was how SMOOTH and SEEMLESS it was. I could suddenly drive constistent times with a decent amount of risk. Also whenever i took a corner and moved over the rammsteins, you didn't see the car bump up a little, it was just as if the road was wider. When you move with your wheels over the rammsteins in Forever, you see them lift a tiny bit. Where in Classic, you don't. This is the main frustration to me.

I believe the competitive side of Trackmania is going to hit a low after ESWC, and i know threads like these can't help about it. Because as you see the comments earlier posted, they don't seem to care that much about it. The majority of the people playing don't play competitively. But main difference between them and the competitive players is. We face the bugs time after time in trainings and for us it matters if we can't finish a round as that can be a win or lose, or even miss out on a cash prize.

- Begrip`JWH.

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by kama » 11 Jul 2008 09:14

And another Nessie conversation..... ever coming back lol

First I wanted to reallly thank what'shisname frustratedgamer for considering us noobs.... Makes me feel so much better knowing that because I'm a noob I dont get bugs...... :lol:

1/ There is no change in the car physics, since the begininng. It has been confirmed over and over by Nadeo. Point closed.
2/ Bugs are computer objetcs: It is a normal reaction of the game engine to determine the outcome of two conflicting polygons coliding. Therefore:
YOU CAN LEARN THEM!!!!! YOU CAN AVOID THEM!!!!! :pil

1/Avoid certain angles on the rammstein in curves
2/Stabilize the car when U jump

I have tried it, and here is the result: On some particularly tech tracks, with sharp turns, you can get 5-6 bugs in 1 round!!!!! If you are more careful about your trajectory, you reduce it to 0!!! Of course, it doesn't look so much as if you were going to kiss the wall in each curve, maybe not as beautiful trajectories, but certainly more efficient since you don't fly away from the track....

So: the choice is yours on how you want to drive. taking risks, rammsteins, and possible bugs or not! But don't say you can't decide and it's fate that put a bug there..... It's your driving.
And don't tell me that you loose interest if you don't rammstein a whole track...... Last: There will be no change whatsoever to amend the "bugs", guess you really gonna have to learn how to drive now ;)

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Zooz » 11 Jul 2008 11:30

Frustratedgamer wrote: And now "New World Order", or better known as "nWo" quits trackmania. They are know as the best trackmania team ever.
The reason for their retirement is many, but one of the impoartent factors was the release of Forever. This is taken from their website:
Some of these nWo players (Sandder, Bergie) were in the TMF Alpha tests, failing to find physics differences with me.

The only reason Forever has more bugs is because it has more blocks.

Also, very much this:
kama wrote: YOU CAN LEARN THEM!!!!! YOU CAN AVOID THEM!!!!! :pil
Of course you can't avoid all of them, and you can't usually avoid them 100% of the time, but you can decrease the risk. It's similar in other TM environments - in fact, most Snow tracks would be worthless in high level competitions (everyone finishing at nearly the same time) if it weren't for the bugs and the tricks to avoid them.

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Frustratedgamer » 11 Jul 2008 14:51

... This is what makes this issue so difficult discusses. Because the average player don't even recognize that this is a huge problem :( .
kama wrote: YOU CAN LEARN THEM!!!!! YOU CAN AVOID THEM!!!!! :pil
Like in old nations, many bugs can be avoided of course.
We train tracks and learn where the bugs usually hit and try to avoid those places. And of course we try to avoid the rammstein the best we can.
Unfortunately, in a lot of league tracks, avoiding the rammstein is impossible. The tracks are so tight and tricky that we would lose far too much time by completely avoiding it.

But this problem with the rammstein was in the old nations too. And to be honest i really didn't mind that sense of randomness that the rammstein brought to the game.
But like JWH said in a previous post, the rammstein bugs in Forever appear a lot more frequently than the old nations :(.
kama wrote:
1/ There is no change in the car physics, since the begininng. It has been confirmed over and over by Nadeo. Point closed.
Point closed? I think even you kama, might realize that there is a problem with Forever when you see a team such as nWo retiring from trackmania because of the release of Forever.
Zooz wrote: The only reason Forever has more bugs is because it has more blocks
So you are saying the new blocks cause bugs to occur on old blocks? lol. Or are u actually saying that you never had a landbug on an old block, like a normal road, that wouldn't have happened in old nations? Because if you haven't, you really haven't played much Nations Forever.
kama wrote: 2/Stabilize the car when U jump
Oh god -.- ... The "beuaty" of the landbug in Forever is that it doesn’t matter which angle u hit the road with. The bug can struck you at any time in any angle. And landing flat won’t help you either.
Zooz wrote: Some of these nWo players (Sandder, Bergie) were in the TMF Alpha tests, failing to find physics differences with me.
This just proves that the testing was not done thoroughly enough, seeing that nWo retired a couple of months later, realizing then how serious the bug problem was :thumbsup:

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Zooz » 11 Jul 2008 15:17

Frustratedgamer wrote: This just proves that the testing was not done thoroughly enough
Well, you weren't helping any. You have no idea how the testing went. Calling it unthorough is a huge insult to all the testers.

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by kama » 11 Jul 2008 16:46

Frustratedgamer wrote:... Unfortunately, in a lot of league tracks, avoiding the rammstein is impossible. The tracks are so tight and tricky that we would lose far too much time by completely avoiding it.
Well it's a matter of risk versus reward thing. You decide how you drive and how risky you decide to drive. And of course you can avoid the ramstein bug, because it has to do with the way you enter and exit the ram. even tight curves can go thru without bug, just have to practice the BUG LIMIT DRIFT, or BUG LIMIT RAMMSTEIN as we call them in our team.
Last. When programing video games, designers have to make decisions on how to balance the game between the physics of the car or objects, and the result they want to achieve, given a consequent number of constraints, that neither you nor me have an idea about. So rather than saying that the test has not been done thoroughly, you could say that Nadeo made a decision. If you don't like it then you can surely change game, but don't pretend that you (anymore than me) has the truth on how the game should be, or on how it should have been designed. Some even ask for colision control... :shock:

I also believe that if at Nadeo's level the "bug" (which again is not a bug, but a property of the game engine) was a serious issue that might hinder their future development they would have taken it into serious consideration. To my understanding, they will not do anything about it despite numerous complaints and tears, and players throwing themselves out of the window out of despair. What the hell is the police doing? :lol:
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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Frustratedgamer » 12 Jul 2008 04:16

Zooz wrote: Well, you weren't helping any. You have no idea how the testing went. Calling it unthorough is a huge insult to all the testers.
No, not at all. It isn’t your fault you didn't have enough time.
kama wrote:just have to practice the BUG LIMIT DRIFT, or BUG LIMIT RAMMSTEIN as we call them in our team.
haha I sure would like a demonstration of that "bug limit drift" you and your team so nicely named it. I’ll meet up with you online, so u can teach me a thing or two about that :1 . What’s the name of your server?
kama wrote: So rather than saying that the test has not been done thoroughly, you could say that Nadeo made a decision.
No. Nadeo did not make any decision, because the increase of bugs wasn't discovered by the beta testers. Nadeo released Forever in the belief that it was identical with the old nations. Sadly this is not the case, with the new landbug as the worst problem.
kama wrote:If you don't like it then you can surely change game, but don't pretend that you (anymore than me) has the truth on how the game should be, or on how it should have been designed. Some even ask for colision control... :shock:


What? When did I ever pretend I have the truth on how the game should be designed? I think perhaps u need to read my previous post further up the page ;).. Here's a short summary in case u are too lazy to read :roll: : What I am saying is that there are a lot more bugs in Forever than old Nations, espcially the landbug. And the whole competitive tmnf world are agreeing with me. And I was hoping Nadeo would acknowledge this problem, and give me their thoughts about this.
kama wrote: I also believe that if at Nadeo's level the "bug" (which again is not a bug, but a property of the game engine) was a serious issue that might hinder their future development they would have taken it into serious consideration. To my understanding, they will not do anything about it despite numerous complaints and tears, and players throwing themselves out of the window out of despair. What the hell is the police doing?
Whether it's "bugs" or "property of the game engine".. Or to put it differently: Whether Nadeo intended these "features" :wink: or not, doesn't really matter. What matters is that a new "feature" has appeared in Forever, the so called "landbug" ;) which really makes it annoying and frustrating to drive trackmania competitively.

Secondly. You are absolutely right :thumbsup: about that this bug problem probably won’t hinder their future development. At least not in the short run... Because there are less than 1 % of the Nations drivers that drive this game competitively. The other 99 % don’t even know the bugs exists :D. Or a few more know of them, but aren’t bothered by it because they don’t practice the same track in and out hundreds of times.

So yeah, looking shortly ahead, Nadeo don't need to do anything. Trackmania is growing insanely popular.

But if we look at a wider perspective. If Nadeo wants their game to be accepted to big LANs in the future (which involves huge publicity), they need a much bigger group of competitive drivers. But lately, since the release of Forever, many high profiled players have given up the game. They are just too tired and frustrated of the randomness and how they lost their prize just before the finish because of a bug.

So if trackmania is to move into LANs in Europe, Asia and USA , the landbug has to go away. I know this most likely will never happend, but I have faith :D

Also if Trackmania is going to last "Forever" or at least many years, like CS 1.6 for instance, it can not have huge bugs...

Finally i must add that even though it may seem like i hate this game, I actually love it :lovetm. Landbug or no landbug, this will always be the only game for me ^^. Though I have my moments where i wanna toss the keyboard through the screen.

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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by kama » 12 Jul 2008 08:13

lol, me too!!!!
As far as bug limit driving is concerned, it's no more than going for a ramstein where you repeatedly get a bug because of the way you enter the ram, and see how you can do the same curve on the ram without bug.
After a while of practice, blocks being alike, you end up foreseing troublesome curves and rams, and you can therefore decide wether you want to take the risk to speed up (and possibly get bugged) or not.
As far as the landing bug is concerned: Either I'am a super noob, either I am the King of the Road, but I never get any! Like I said if you learn how to stabilize the car they do not happen. They do happen when the car has not been stabilized in the right position, but to be honnest I very scarcely miss a landing provided I jumped correctly and stabilized. And that even on dirt...... Go and try: make yourself some tracks with just those difficulties, tight curves and jumps on dirt landing, speed it up more or less, and try for a day to skim the edge of the track and to jump stabilizing. I can asure you after a bit of practice you will see what I mean. And you will also know before it happens when you will get a bug......

About the tests, as a last word: the landing bug was not discovered during the tests, because it is something that already existed in TMU.... I agree that the whole TMU game might be disconcerting for people coming from TMN, but it is mostly subjective (have you tried running on regular old TMN tracks? Surely you make the same times than you did on Nations....). TMU players have been playing for some time with those "bugs". Last: good players remain good whether they bug or not. The last ESCW Masters in Paris: no bug during the final....And you can't say that these guys don't drive at the limit: Xenogear, Lign, Carl, Frostbeule..... If the bug was such a problem, you wouldn't see the same faces year after year..

Anyway and like U said, we love the game, defaults included!!
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Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Zooz » 12 Jul 2008 11:09

kama wrote: As far as the landing bug is concerned: Either I'am a super noob, either I am the King of the Road, but I never get any! Like I said if you learn how to stabilize the car they do not happen. They do happen when the car has not been stabilized in the right position, but to be honnest I very scarcely miss a landing provided I jumped correctly and stabilized. And that even on dirt......
Same here really, an important thing I've noticed is to never land completely flat (like on Snow). I still get lots of landing bugs on Dirt though, but that was the same in TMU and I don't play it that often so I probably just didn't learn to avoid those yet. But bugs when landing on flat non-dirt surfaces? Almost never, and if I get them I'll know what went wrong.

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