BUGS IN FOREVER

General Discussion about Trackmania Nations ESWC.

Moderator: TM-Patrol

User avatar
Boumsong
sunday driver
sunday driver
Posts: 59
Joined: 09 Oct 2007 16:43
Owned TM-games: TMUF

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Boumsong » 28 Jul 2008 23:50

Well i dont think Zooz would deny there are bugs in tm ;)

And i tend to agree the range of stadium bugs (maybe some tmo too) has increased, but i dont really care, its the same for everyone :pil

=THC=Flash
speedy pilot
speedy pilot
Posts: 536
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 12:40
Owned TM-games: TMN ESWC, TMNF, TMUF
Location: Portugal

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by =THC=Flash » 30 Jul 2008 16:16

Trackmaniack wrote:Okay, hell, I'll admit I'm probably the biggest n00b member here on the TM forums....I don't even think any of you have heard of the racer RedThunder...XD but anyway, after the first thread debating this topic came around, I did some deliberate experimentation to find the bugs, and guess what? Couldn't find a single one, especially this 'landbug'--on dirt or on the tarmac that seems to have everyone so inflamed. I've landed the car from just about every feasible "rubber-side-down" angle, and, except for falls from the "ceiling" of the Stadium to the floor, I've experienced EXACTLY the same physics that I played with in Nations. Me and Zooz don't usually agree, but here, I gotta back him up. NF is JUST the same as Nations, and anybody who calls Zooz a noob is the noob....Zooz could beat just about anybody on here--blindfolded. I've seen him race. And secondly, anyone who disses the fact that the testing of Nadeo's work was 'unthourough', needs an ass-whoopin. Nadeo's the maker of the best racing game on the planet. Period. If you're one of those weird people who doesn't like TM, then DON'T PLAY IT. It's as simple as that.
I can asure you ( me and a great number of players who i have spoke with or have seen their comments in game ) that there is a Land Bug in Dirt Tracks! If you cant realise about this Bug with all that experiment you did, well, i dont know for how long you tried, but try more please, because the Bug is there!! :1

User avatar
Djoszee
happy cruiser
happy cruiser
Posts: 144
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 11:46
Owned TM-games: TMO / TMN / TMUF
Location: Groningen, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Djoszee » 06 Aug 2008 11:49

a completely different bug that annoys me is the fact that it is not possible to copy mt blocks :scene:

User avatar
Trackmaniack
solid chaser
solid chaser
Posts: 1055
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 20:05
Owned TM-games: All
Location: Dubuque, Iowa, USA
Contact:

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Trackmaniack » 06 Aug 2008 13:53

heh...that does get annoying. But, you can do a different form of copy. You can highlight the beginning key, the copy and paste the X Y and Z values into your new block....that's what I do, anyway...
Cruisin' through life, TM-Style!
Image
_________________________________________________________________________

Image

mitttig
road tourist
road tourist
Posts: 85
Joined: 02 Apr 2008 19:32
Owned TM-games: TMN TMS TMNF TMUF

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by mitttig » 13 Aug 2008 19:22

i found the landbug to finally he really is :twisted: :evil: :twisted:
I have listened to racemaniak

abs
highway camper
highway camper
Posts: 3
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 20:44
Owned TM-games: tmnf

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by abs » 22 Aug 2008 21:06

Ok, I play Trackmania Nations from more than 2 years now.

I got baddly addicted to the original TMN, addition that i would not get, if i started playing tmnf. Because to be honest, TMNF really ruined, the best free-game ever.
I mean, it still is a nice game, pretty graphics, everything so coulourfull and beautifull.... but why the shitty new costum blocks, ?... whats the point of that? the game turned from a racing game ( speed, tech and stunt), to a sort-of High-Tech "space techology look alike" not so fun racing anymore. the difference is that here, the spaceships have wheels and make f1 sound.


Bugs really are so annoying, landing bugs ( not only on dirt and regular track, but also in the sideways) IT GOT RANDOMLY ridiculous, to drive such a buggy game.

If you made all landings, all ramsteins, and even stability of car just after jumping, always the same, given equal situations, it would be FAIR. But no, you decided to make it random style! sometimes with same speed, same angle, the car just gets BUGGED!, flies, spins over himself, goes offtrack.


I hope in tmnforever2, you test the game, better than you did for this one, as well as ask for trackbuilders that dont belong to nadeo, to help you to create tracks, since i dont understand, how can nadeo tracks quality be miles away from almost every user created track in tmx. It almost seems you didnt even care.


Maybe im wrong about nadeo tracks quality, and tmnF quality as well, and if so, sorry to nadeo. ( afterall is a free game)

Aso
pedestrian
pedestrian
Posts: 7
Joined: 30 Mar 2008 20:21
Owned TM-games: TMU,TMN

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Aso » 22 Aug 2008 23:36

funny thread :)

What nobody seems to notice or even care about is that these are bugs since TMN. You see when software evolves to something bigger it usually includes fixing bugs that existed in previous versions. Apparently Nadeo thought these bugs weren't important enough to fix. Or they simply needed it to go out to the users because they needed the money. Either way these bugs exist and are confirmed. Yes you can avoid them but not if you want to set the fastest time possible. I'm certainly no "pro" racer like some others here but even I notice them.

It would be nice to hear from Nadeo if these bugs will ever be looked at or if they will simply continue to exist in future versions of the game (they been in TMN,TMU and now TMF). Also if you look at these things as bugs its already crazy that players need to avoid them at all. Is having bugs so normal these days ?

And these bugs actually affect the gameplay... Some would think that has a high priority.

Don't get me wrong i like this game but to go as far as saying that I like its flaws too. That would be silly.

abs
highway camper
highway camper
Posts: 3
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 20:44
Owned TM-games: tmnf

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by abs » 23 Aug 2008 00:59

TMN had bugs. but imagine that every little bug in tmn, got twice its weight now in gameplaying, and still add it some more new "buggin features". That is tmnf.

(there is also a bug, nobody talked here yet, i already noticed it sometimes, that happens when you drift a corner, and sometimes your car loses more speed than it is supposed to. Like if the brake button sometimes, depending on some "angle range" you drive the corner, takes double value and instead of going from 400km/h to 250 and drift the corner you go from 400 to 100 ( randomly of course)....its hard to explain, but i am sure somebody must have felt that already in some way)

Why dont they simply create a FIX or PATCH to solve this problem? is it too hard or they simply dont care?

Zooz
TM-Patrol
TM-Patrol
Posts: 5326
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 08:58
Owned TM-games: TMO, TMS, TMNF, TMUF
Manialink(s): zooz
Location: The Netherlands

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Zooz » 23 Aug 2008 10:58

They don't want physics changes because of the competitive aspect of TMN, that's why they don't touch the physics, I think. And if you ask Nadeo the physics haven't changed from TMN to TMNF.

Steve_59
speedy pilot
speedy pilot
Posts: 425
Joined: 05 Mar 2008 19:21
Owned TM-games: TMUF

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Steve_59 » 23 Aug 2008 11:50

Zooz wrote:.. And if you ask Nadeo the physics haven't changed from TMN to TMNF.
I hope you mean from TMU to TMF.
TMN has different physics to TMU and TMF, PF starts for instance.
Also TMN did not have the same landing, loop or Ramstien bugs as TMU or TMF.
Wham! BAM! Thank you ma'am!

Zooz
TM-Patrol
TM-Patrol
Posts: 5326
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 08:58
Owned TM-games: TMO, TMS, TMNF, TMUF
Manialink(s): zooz
Location: The Netherlands

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Zooz » 23 Aug 2008 12:30

I meant exactly what I said.
Also:
Florent wrote:PF are not compatible. It is the butterfly effect. We compile and the rounding of some float makes it different.
And a comment from when I showed the whole "Angel jump doesn't work" thing:
Florent wrote: Imagine for some reason that we start to accelerate the car with some frame of delay at start, or that we launch the car at a different height, or that we export again the starting block, which would change it's collisions by a very little margin. Your first jump may be really too close from start to ignore the butterfly effect of random changes for you. You are using the "unstable equilibrum" physic phenomenon to illustrate that a sphere on a sphere is dropping left instead of right. That is a binary conclusion based on epsilon factors. I know computer are not physics, but when epsilon starts to happen in float computing, it is pretty much the same. We can not use a "=" symbol, we must use > or <.

Steve_59
speedy pilot
speedy pilot
Posts: 425
Joined: 05 Mar 2008 19:21
Owned TM-games: TMUF

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Steve_59 » 23 Aug 2008 13:04

I do not mean any disrespect Zooz, but from the players viewpoint the physics have changed, or at least the way each car behaves.

I also respect Florent, but I cannot understand what he has written, I am not a mathematics major.

All I was trying to state was that TMU = TMNF and TMUF. TMN equals neither, it was different.
There was a vast change in play between the versions, I know this as a player, I cannot explain it with mathematics, it is a gut feel.

I was not trying to argue with you, or prove you wrong, I know that you have way more experience than me. But from my view point, as both a TMN, TMU, TMNF and TMUF player there is a difference that can be felt by the player.
Wham! BAM! Thank you ma'am!

Zooz
TM-Patrol
TM-Patrol
Posts: 5326
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 08:58
Owned TM-games: TMO, TMS, TMNF, TMUF
Manialink(s): zooz
Location: The Netherlands

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Zooz » 23 Aug 2008 13:25

Heh, we had this discussion with Florent before on the beta forum. He also talke about 'feel'. But I'm sure there's a reason he's not posting here, so i'm not going to copy-paste all his posts, which were only intended for the beta testers anyway.

Racemaniac
TM-Patrol
TM-Patrol
Posts: 2480
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 10:57
Owned TM-games: all
Manialink(s): racemaniac
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Racemaniac » 23 Aug 2008 14:06

Steve_59 wrote:I do not mean any disrespect Zooz, but from the players viewpoint the physics have changed, or at least the way each car behaves.

I also respect Florent, but I cannot understand what he has written, I am not a mathematics major.

All I was trying to state was that TMU = TMNF and TMUF. TMN equals neither, it was different.
There was a vast change in play between the versions, I know this as a player, I cannot explain it with mathematics, it is a gut feel.

I was not trying to argue with you, or prove you wrong, I know that you have way more experience than me. But from my view point, as both a TMN, TMU, TMNF and TMUF player there is a difference that can be felt by the player.
basically the point florent tries to make is:
-the code for the physics hasn't changed, so cars behave the same
-some tiny changes in the starting position of the cars, or in blocks that have been updated, can cause noticable differences (in for example press forward tracks), which don't have to indicate that the car actually behaves different, but that one block, or the starting position of the car might have been slightly different, and from that point on, the difference will grow rapidly with each frame...

i think someone once made a screen where in the old tmn, the car starts with it's wheels hanging down since it's pretty high on the road, and in the new tmnf, the car starts sitting far lower, as you'd expect it to be when just driving. this difference can change a lot in pf tracks, but doesn't prove any difference in car behaviour...

the fact that in beta tests, people like zooz who have got insanely good driving skills tested a few tracks extremely intensively in both games, to try and spot even the slightest difference, didn't find anything, suggests to me that this is probably more myth than fact.

the more bugs you feel are probably rather dirt related, which is more landing bug prone alas... and besides that, just the rumor, and the difference in some pf's, can lead to people being convinced...
it's easy to scare someone/lose someone's thrust, and insanely hard to calm them down/gain their thrust again. it's the good old fud tactic (fear, uncertainty, doubt). these three things are extremely effective weapons, and can easily sway public opinion one way, despite the other way being correct. just casting doubt on the physics, is very easy, and will get lots of people to complain about it. showing the opposite, is as you can see extremely hard... as is human nature, and it's very easy to abuse...
as much as the trackmanias may rule, carmageddon 1 & 2 are still the best games ever :D

User avatar
Trackmaniack
solid chaser
solid chaser
Posts: 1055
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 20:05
Owned TM-games: All
Location: Dubuque, Iowa, USA
Contact:

Re: BUGS IN FOREVER

Post by Trackmaniack » 23 Aug 2008 18:22

I know that the vast majority of you on here in this forum know more than I do, but I have to disagree with you on this, Racemaniac. I don't doubt that Zooz and the other beta-testers went through the game extensively. However, the car in TMNF is slightly heavier than the one in TMN...and as such, the physics do change ever so slightly....
Cruisin' through life, TM-Style!
Image
_________________________________________________________________________

Image

Post Reply