Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Here's the place to discuss anything related to TMF ladder ranking, special "ladder servers", rank limit rules and possible issues you might have with this system.

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tomsawyer
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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by tomsawyer » 08 Oct 2008 22:11

I think you're looking for the <50k servers. Those are for casual players. 50k+ is competition
tnx 4 the advice......i'll bear it in mind :P
you obviously didnt read my post did u :roll:
dont agree with you hotswat btw...different people are better at different environments..just because you are good at tech tracks doesnt mean that you are the best at tm....there are stunts/platform/lol/skilled tracks etc...why do people who are the fastest on tech tracks always think they are the best at this game.....i would like to think im a 'jack of all tracks' and a 'master of none'.....anyways i just play the game for fun now so enough of this :arrow: :|

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by HotSWAT » 09 Oct 2008 15:27

tomsawyer wrote:
dont agree with you hotswat btw...different people are better at different environments..just because you are good at tech tracks doesnt mean that you are the best at tm....there are stunts/platform/lol/skilled tracks etc...why do people who are the fastest on tech tracks always think they are the best at this game.....
i didn't mean it to get across like that, in fact i didn't even mention tech...I am aware that different people are better on different environments, but when i say "fastest people i know" i mean people who can go on most any nations server and come top 3 in every race.

but what the point i was trying to get to was, that overall, if i see somebody ranked 1,000...it doesn't mean they are the 1,000th best player....
but if we had a lose-points-when-you-lose-the-match system, surely it would more accurately show who's who?
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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by =THC=Flash » 10 Oct 2008 08:36

HotSWAT wrote: but if we had a lose-points-when-you-lose-the-match system, surely it would more accurately show who's who?
Agree 100%. :thumbsup: That would be a much more fair and understandable system, as other racing games use that kind of system with great sucess. Surelly it would be much better than this actual system that gives us points won fairly in the races, and then takes us those points again. :pil

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by Slig » 10 Oct 2008 09:02

=THC=Flash wrote:
HotSWAT wrote: but if we had a lose-points-when-you-lose-the-match system, surely it would more accurately show who's who?
Agree 100%. :thumbsup: That would be a much more fair and understandable system, as other racing games use that kind of system with great sucess. Surelly it would be much better than this actual system that gives us points won fairly in the races, and then takes us those points again. :pil
On tmo/tms, with negative points, i think that some high rank finally refused to played in some cases to avoid loosing points. Also someone not playing kept his points forever. Personnally I liked the positive/negative points system, but it has its own problems too.

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by corto-72 » 10 Oct 2008 10:33

May be the negative/positive point approach combined with some sort of time based decay would resolve the issue with players not willing to play/not playing because of point losses... It would certainly force players to play to keep up their ranking :roflol:

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by tma » 10 Oct 2008 11:41

=THC=Flash wrote:Agree 100%. :thumbsup: That would be a much more fair and understandable system, as other racing games use that kind of system with great sucess. Surelly it would be much better than this actual system that gives us points won fairly in the races, and then takes us those points again. :pil
They're not "taken away" per se, unless I've completely misunderstood the concept. Rather, they're periodically normalized to fit tier-quotas. This of course results in a points lost, but as a concept it's still completely different from having something taken away. Why? Because you keep your rank and points relative to everyone else. This also maintains a "real points"-cap so that even a year from now, it will still take roughly the same amount of time to hit 90k/100k as it does now. Whereas in TMN it would take years to catch up with Team Missing Link - and that's assuming they stopped doing their thing...

Of course, such a system moves the "who plays the most"-factor down from <infinity> (TMN) to who plays the most between each normalization (currently once per week unless I'm mistaken). At least until you hit 90k. Between 90k-100k is the first time in the ladder where skill really matters more than time played (since you only get three hours per week). For EVERY SINGLE other tier, you can compensate for lack of skill by just putting in more time than everyone else.. While maybe not a perfect system, this is the reason for RoC-servers and the limited window everyone's so busy complaining about without making any effort to see WHY that window exists to begin with.

Repeat after me:
- Ladders are a competitive thing.
- A ladder would fail to be a ladder if everyone could attain the same rank.
- Being able to climb to the top of the ladder is not a human right.

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by HotSWAT » 10 Oct 2008 17:31

tma wrote:
=THC=Flash wrote:Agree 100%. :thumbsup: That would be a much more fair and understandable system, as other racing games use that kind of system with great sucess. Surelly it would be much better than this actual system that gives us points won fairly in the races, and then takes us those points again. :pil
They're not "taken away" per se, unless I've completely misunderstood the concept. Rather, they're periodically normalized to fit tier-quotas. This of course results in a points lost, but as a concept it's still completely different from having something taken away. Why? Because you keep your rank and points relative to everyone else. This also maintains a "real points"-cap so that even a year from now, it will still take roughly the same amount of time to hit 90k/100k as it does now. Whereas in TMN it would take years to catch up with Team Missing Link - and that's assuming they stopped doing their thing...

Of course, such a system moves the "who plays the most"-factor down from <infinity> (TMN) to who plays the most between each normalization (currently once per week unless I'm mistaken). At least until you hit 90k. Between 90k-100k is the first time in the ladder where skill really matters more than time played (since you only get three hours per week). For EVERY SINGLE other tier, you can compensate for lack of skill by just putting in more time than everyone else.. While maybe not a perfect system, this is the reason for RoC-servers and the limited window everyone's so busy complaining about without making any effort to see WHY that window exists to begin with.
i don't think you've read my post properly...
i wasn't praising the new system recently put into practice, i was putting forward a new idea (although not really new at all) for a ranking system.
which is that people would still gain points from winning, but if they do not come..say, top 3, they would lose points.
Repeat after me:
- Ladders are a competitive thing.
- A ladder would fail to be a ladder if everyone could attain the same rank.
- Being able to climb to the top of the ladder is not a human right.
if the system i suggested was put into practice, i think the game would be far more competitive.
at the moment, most people can attain a high rank ( less than 1,000) by putting enough time into high ranked servers, this would not be the case with the system i suggested.

obviously, the idea is pretty rough at the moment and there are some problems with it, but alot of these problems can be overcome, and overall a system like this seems good to me
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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by tma » 10 Oct 2008 21:25

HotSWAT wrote:i don't think you've read my post properly...
More to the point, I wasn't commenting directly on your post at all. But since you bring it up: In any game I've seen with loss of ladder-rank upon losing, you end up with two things: The top players stop playing more than the BARE minimum needed to avoid rank decay, since there's nothing to gain. And second, everyone makes alt-accounts fooling around, or getting to the top with even cleaner overall stats.. Add that to the fact that in Trackmania-matches, even among equals, the winner is often decided by who knows the tracks best. We'd probably end up with people holed up in their same old server, playing the same old boring tracks forevermore. Would you join a server with maps you'd never seen before, if you risked losing a significant amount of points?

Though as you can see from my first post, I largely agree with you that in the current scheme, at least for 0-90k, it's still mainly about who plays more than who's best. If you want real competition, though, just play ESL/ESWC/TNA or any other tourney out there.

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by biggetje » 13 Oct 2008 03:09

Hi. I went from rank 1250 to 1850 an hour ago. How could this happen?? I understand the reducing points to keep a certain amount of players in each category, but how can my ranking drop? Shouldnt everyone be losing equally?

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by jamie_macdonald » 13 Oct 2008 04:24

Oh no ... aload of people going on about a point loss system when one allready exists .. Yet Again!!! lol

eg:
Player 1 .. beats player 2 in a room of ten players...

Player 1 gets 95 lp ... Player 2 gets 80....

Why do you not see this is the SAME as a player2 loosing 15 points *bangs head against wall*
:roflol:

U guys are mad :P

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by =THC=Flash » 13 Oct 2008 09:57

biggetje wrote:Hi. I went from rank 1250 to 1850 an hour ago. How could this happen?? I understand the reducing points to keep a certain amount of players in each category, but how can my ranking drop? Shouldnt everyone be losing equally?
I went from rank 77 ( yesterday at 2000h CET ) to rank 130 today! :grmblz:

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by Zooz » 13 Oct 2008 11:34

-_-

That's the ladder updating. Your ladder only gets updated every 24 hours or so.

So if you gained 1000 ranks yesterday, it was compared to yesterday's ladder. Today you also received the updated positions of the other players, who will also have gained points yesterday, so you drop to your real rank again.

Example:

Start situation of the ladder, before Sunday. This is the ladder that's on everyone's PC when they start playing:

1. A 120 pts
2. B 110 pts
3. C 100 pts
4. D 90 pts
5. E 80 pts

Ok, now it's sunday. You're E, and you play, and you gain 50 points. Then on your PC the ladder looks like this:

1. E 130 pts
2. A 120 pts
3. B 110 pts
4. C 100 pts
5. D 90 pts
Here you, E, see you have rank 1, compared to the ladder that's stored on your computer.

But, on at the same time, the other players also played. For example, A gained 20 points, so on A's PC the ladder looks like this:

1. A 140 pts
2. B 110 pts
3. C 100 pts
4. D 90 pts
5. E 80 pts
Here A also sees he has rank 1, compared to the ladder that's stored on his computer.


And at the same time on Nadeo's server, where the real ladder is, it would then look like this:

1. A 140 pts
2. E 130 pts
3. B 110 pts
4. C 100 pts
5. D 90 pts

But you, E, can't see this because the ladder only updates every 24 hours.

So on Monday, everyone's ladder update and they receive the latest ladder from Nadeo. Then for you, Player E, it looks like you have suddenly dropped to 2nd, while it looked like you were 1st Sunday:

1. A 140 pts
2. E 130 pts
3. B 110 pts
4. C 100 pts
5. D 90 pts

But that's really only because your rank as it showed Sunday was compared to the ladder of the previous day. In reality the other players also gained points, not only you, and you'll only see this once the ladder updates. So, your displayed rank drops again when that happens - to your real rank, not the one compared to yesterday's ladder that it showed before.

Is that clear enough? :roll:

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by =THC=Flash » 13 Oct 2008 13:22

So the ladder i see online it is not correct? For exemple, when i was 77 yesterday, i wasnt really 77 in Nadeo official ladder? I thought the ladder was updated online for all, mixing ranks and points in real time! :o

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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by HotSWAT » 13 Oct 2008 15:16

jamie_macdonald wrote:Oh no ... aload of people going on about a point loss system when one allready exists .. Yet Again!!! lol

eg:
Player 1 .. beats player 2 in a room of ten players...

Player 1 gets 95 lp ... Player 2 gets 80....

Why do you not see this is the SAME as a player2 loosing 15 points *bangs head against wall*
:roflol:

U guys are mad :P
its actually totally different to what u just said.
if 2 people have 90k points and one wins and one comes last.
the one who wins gets 90k + 10, the other gets 90k -10 for losing. (for example)
now one of them is in the 90k plus bracket and one is in the 80k - 90k bracket.
now do you get it? the fact we are trying to keep these brackets??
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Re: Ladder reducing points, rank is the same

Post by biggetje » 13 Oct 2008 16:04

Well how can you explain this:

I had 80200 LP last night, for ranking 1250

Monday morning (less than 12 hours ago) it changes to 78000 LP, for ranking 1850

I understand that this is to keep 1000 players in the 80k-90k range

But here comes the strange part:

I have been playing a lot in these 12 hours, and at this moment I am back at 80000 LP, for ranking 1387!!!

If the ladder is only updated once every 24 hours, shouldn't I see a top 1000 rank on my screen? As I fall in the category 80k-90k, and the other people's scores aren't updated yet??

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